[coonmanxdog]

Seems to be a lot of "beer snobs" out there lately that think that if you do a secondary fermentation you will automatically get low quality beer. And I disagree 100%. Of course it has to be done correctly and I think that many people fail in that regard....

I go to secondary as soon as the head crashes on primary. That way the beer will still be giving off some CO2 and that CO2 will displace any oxygen that is present in the very small headspace that is in the secondary carboy. While transferring I also make sure that the end of the siphon hose is down into the beer as it fills the secondary so I am not introducing oxygen into the beer as I siphon. Also if the beer is still gassing off some CO2 then any oxygen that might get into the beer would get carried away by the CO2 as it leaves the beer. And finally, at that point in time, if the beer has not actually finished fermenting completely any oxygen will get eaten up by the millions of yeast cells that are still working in the beer.

In general, I go to secondary at the three day point in time but that will vary on the conditions present. My rule is to do it once the head has crashed on primary and also when the bubbles in the S-shaped fermentation lock reach one per minute or so. Those two things usually coincide quite well.

I have one large 7.5 gallon carboy that I use for primary and two 5 gallon carboys that I use for secondary. That works quite well because that way I can always have ten gallons of beer in various stages. Once in secondary there is no rush to get the beer into the keg either. Last year I waited three months before finally priming some beer in a keg for my birthday poker party. And it came out great, even with the temps getting pretty warm at times in my apartment (up to 80 degrees by the end of the day sometimes). I primed that keg with malt extract, threw it in my friend's basement (where it is cooler) and then we consumed it all in basically one evening and it was delicious.

I get very good and clear beer using this method and the beer does not suffer from oxidation at all. Yet there are people who will still try to convince me that there has to be something wrong with the beer, but they never have any evidence to back up their claims. I am very happy with the results and pretty much everyone who tastes what I brew says that it is very good beer. So I am quite confident in the process.

Haters going to hate.... We should have an actual discussion instead of this beer snobbery nonsense that seems to be going on. On a recent trip to a local brewery I was very unimpressed with what they were serving. It wasn't bad but I can make better beer than that. A friend of mine did indeed use the term "beer snobs" and I agreed with that assessment. I brew beer that anyone can enjoy. And I will stand behind any beer that I brew and even put it up against what anyone else brews.

[Iliff Ave]

Nothing wrong with doing a secondary I just don't find it necessary. Once fermentation is finished, cold crashing in the primary does the trick for me.

[coonmanxdog]

Nothing wrong with doing a secondary I just don't find it necessary. Once fermentation is finished, cold crashing in the primary does the trick for me.

I find it necessary because I only have one keg yet I like to have ten gallons around at any one point in time. And so by having two carboys for secondary I can store the beer for a while and not have to worry about it getting into the keg. Also it does drop the amount of sediment present and gives a clear beer, whether the beer is going into bottles or a keg.

Also, I have heard people say that by doing secondary you are introducing all of these extra risks of infection and oxidation and I call BS on that as well. If done correctly and with good sanitation practices those risks are probably zero or next to zero.

And I have no way to cold crash....

[rburrelli]

I visit a few forums for beer and this is always a question that gets debated a lot. Particularly new brewers ask a lot.
I don’t recall anyone saying you get lesser quality beer by using one. Most state the possible risks of oxidation (which are real) and/or the actual necessity of a secondary. This is not “beer snobbery”.

Don’t be offended but your post kind of comes off as snobbery.

I am all for a healthy discussion of the topic. God knows we have already seen infinite posts on the subject already.

Do what works for you.

[coonmanxdog]

I visit a few forums for beer and this is always a question that gets debated a lot. Particularly new brewers ask a lot.
I don%u2019t recall anyone saying you get lesser quality beer by using one. Most state the possible risks of oxidation (which are real) and/or the actual necessity of a secondary. This is not %u201Cbeer snobbery%u201D.

Don%u2019t be offended but your post kind of comes off as snobbery.

I am all for a healthy discussion of the topic. God knows we have already seen infinite posts on the subject already.

Do what works for you.

And yet there should be an almost non-existent risk of oxidation if you follow good practices. I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

If snobbery means that I am confident in the way I do things then so be it. I'm not going to apologize for making good beer using sound methods.....

I think often times people will play up risks just so that they can claim that they are in fact doing it the right way when in fact those risks are not really relevant at all. Do people not know how to properly sanitize or do they not know how to prevent the beer from splashing when siphoning? LOL.

[Iliff Ave]

I visit a few forums for beer and this is always a question that gets debated a lot. Particularly new brewers ask a lot.
I don%u2019t recall anyone saying you get lesser quality beer by using one. Most state the possible risks of oxidation (which are real) and/or the actual necessity of a secondary. This is not %u201Cbeer snobbery%u201D.

Don%u2019t be offended but your post kind of comes off as snobbery.

I am all for a healthy discussion of the topic. God knows we have already seen infinite posts on the subject already.

Do what works for you.

And yet there should be an almost non-existent risk of oxidation if you follow good practices. I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

If snobbery means that I am confident in the way I do things then so be it. I'm not going to apologize for making good beer using sound methods.....

I think often times people will play up risks just so that they can claim that they are in fact doing it the right way when in fact those risks are not really relevant at all. Do people not know how to properly sanitize or do they not know how to prevent the beer from splashing when siphoning? LOL.

There are a lot of sound methods to make good beer. It does sound like you are trying to say that your way is better though...

[Die Beerery]

Anytime you transfer still beer, you will pick up oxygen, actually let me back up. Any time you transfer beer you pick up oxygen, no matter how good you are, it matters not when at that point in the brewing process that be. Only when transferring with yeast activity present are you actually protected, because you have a method for oxygen consumption; Active yeast. You transferring to secondary with active fermentation remaining does infact help you tremendously, and is probably the best possible way to do so if needed.

[Big Monk]

There are a lot of sound methods to make good beer. It does sound like you are trying to say that your way is better though...

The old subtle brag disguised as a discussion trick. Not gonna fall for that one...

[coonmanxdog]

Anytime you transfer still beer, you will pick up oxygen, actually let me back up. Any time you transfer beer you pick up oxygen, no matter how good you are, it matters not when at that point in the brewing process that be. Only when transferring with yeast activity present are you actually protected, because you have a method for oxygen consumption; Active yeast. You transferring to secondary with active fermentation remaining does infact help you tremendously, and is probably the best possible way to do so if needed.

And as I said I am actually transferring when there are a lot of yeast present and the beer is still giving off CO2.

[Die Beerery]

Anytime you transfer still beer, you will pick up oxygen, actually let me back up. Any time you transfer beer you pick up oxygen, no matter how good you are, it matters not when at that point in the brewing process that be. Only when transferring with yeast activity present are you actually protected, because you have a method for oxygen consumption; Active yeast. You transferring to secondary with active fermentation remaining does infact help you tremendously, and is probably the best possible way to do so if needed.

And as I said I am actually transferring when there are a lot of yeast present and the beer is still giving off CO2.

I took the time to read your post, and comment accordingly. I ask you the please do the same.

[HabeasCorpus]

I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.  You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.  If you're really interested obtain a DO meter and quantify it.

If a secondary fermenter enables you do to what you want then use it, even if you're just storing uncarbonated beer in it.

Can you link to the discussions where these "snobs" said you would get low quality beer by using a secondary?

[coonmanxdog]

There are a lot of sound methods to make good beer. It does sound like you are trying to say that your way is better though...

The old subtle brag disguised as a discussion trick. Not gonna fall for that one...

This is not a brag at all. Right now I am being attacked by someone on another forum for my methods. And I find that ridiculous.

Also don't I have the right to be confident about my process after 30 years of brewing and having the people who consume my beer tell me that it is "getting better and better"? You can call that a brag but I have nothing at all to be ashamed of or apologize for. My beer speaks for itself. So I will defend my methods and try to share what I have learned over the course of 30 years of brewing....

[coonmanxdog]

I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.  You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.  If you're really interested obtain a DO meter and quantify it.

If a secondary fermenter enables you do to what you want then use it, even if you're just storing uncarbonated beer in it.

Can you link to the discussions where these "snobs" said you would get low quality beer by using a secondary?

And yet you can provide no proof of the level of oxidation that I am experiencing or that it in fact is negatively affecting my beer. Proof still matters if you are going to claim something. Just saying....

[Big Monk]

If snobbery means that I am confident in the way I do things then so be it. I'm not going to apologize for making good beer using sound methods.....

I think often times people will play up risks just so that they can claim that they are in fact doing it the right way when in fact those risks are not really relevant at all.

It sounds like you do it for a logistics reason and have a method for doing it in a way that preserves your beer quality. Kudos.

For most people it's a total waste of time. Most of the "discussion" on the topic revolves around your treatment of the former and the disdain for the latter. Again, this topic has been "debated", "argued", etc. ad nauseum.

Very glad you have it worked out though. I'm always happy to hear someone solving an issue of logistics.

[coonmanxdog]

Anytime you transfer still beer, you will pick up oxygen, actually let me back up. Any time you transfer beer you pick up oxygen, no matter how good you are, it matters not when at that point in the brewing process that be. Only when transferring with yeast activity present are you actually protected, because you have a method for oxygen consumption; Active yeast. You transferring to secondary with active fermentation remaining does infact help you tremendously, and is probably the best possible way to do so if needed.

And as I said I am actually transferring when there are a lot of yeast present and the beer is still giving off CO2.

I took the time to read your post, and comment accordingly. I ask you the please do the same.

I did read your post and I agree with that sentence that you highlighted. Sorry, I just tend to type out responses quickly sometimes.