[Big Monk]

And you can science all day but that doesn't do the work of brewing the beer. The brewer in the end makes the beer.

Still having trouble following you. What is the point of your OP?

I'm not sure anymore because it has become painfully obvious that if you dare to say that you do a secondary fermentation then you have to be wrong. So apparently the answer to my question is "No, we can not have a serious discussion about secondary fermentation".... It has to be only one way. Brewers will not accept any deviation. We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. LOL.

I think most would agree that what you describe seems to work for you and congratulate you on that. Many, however, don't find a reason to do it, and since it adds nothing to the flavor of the beer wouldn't be able to justify the extra step.

 

[coonmanxdog]

And you can science all day but that doesn't do the work of brewing the beer. The brewer in the end makes the beer.

Still having trouble following you. What is the point of your OP?

I'm not sure anymore because it has become painfully obvious that if you dare to say that you do a secondary fermentation then you have to be wrong. So apparently the answer to my question is "No, we can not have a serious discussion about secondary fermentation".... It has to be only one way. Brewers will not accept any deviation. We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. LOL.

I think most would agree that what you describe seems to work for you and congratulate you on that. Many, however, don't find a reason to do it, and since it adds nothing to the flavor of the beer wouldn't be able to justify the extra step.

And yet the point is not to "add something to the flavor of the beer". It is to get better clearing and less sediment and allow for easy storage. A completely different goal than what you just described.

Some would have me doubt my 30 years of experience just because it's not in a book or someone disagrees. I'm not going to do that. And I doubt that those who I share my beer with would want me to do that either.

[Big Monk]

I would also say that done correctly there is a benefit to doing a secondary. Clearer beer and the ability to store in secondary without having to worry about when the beer will go into a keg. If some can not see that benefit then I can not help them to understand that.

Each to his own....

Also the brewer is not an "applied scientist". Far from it. The brewer is more of a chef. Yes there is underlying science in both fields but the individual is the one who crafts the final product. Not a book.

Actually, the yeast is the entity crafting the final product. By your logic, the brewer is just the guy in the kitchen who chops the celery, while the yeast is the head chef.

We take what we learn about brewing and apply that to brewing. We add "field" experience and lessons learned and apply those as well. Maybe Beer Engineer is a more apt term.

[Big Monk]

I think most would agree that what you describe seems to work for you and congratulate you on that. Many, however, don't find a reason to do it, and since it adds nothing to the flavor of the beer wouldn't be able to justify the extra step.

And yet the point is not to "add something to the flavor of the beer". It is to get better clearing and less sediment and allow for easy storage. A completely different goal than what you just described.

Also totally achievable without transfer to a secondary vessel.

[coonmanxdog]

I think most would agree that what you describe seems to work for you and congratulate you on that. Many, however, don't find a reason to do it, and since it adds nothing to the flavor of the beer wouldn't be able to justify the extra step.

And yet the point is not to "add something to the flavor of the beer". It is to get better clearing and less sediment and allow for easy storage. A completely different goal than what you just described.

Also totally achievable without transfer to a secondary vessel.

And maybe it is but not with the equipment that I now use.

Also I don't see a point in changing course if doing that change is not going to get me any better results in the end. Maybe if I ever get my brewery up and running. But at this point in time the brewery business isn't doing so well either.

[coonmanxdog]

I would also say that done correctly there is a benefit to doing a secondary. Clearer beer and the ability to store in secondary without having to worry about when the beer will go into a keg. If some can not see that benefit then I can not help them to understand that.

Each to his own....

Also the brewer is not an "applied scientist". Far from it. The brewer is more of a chef. Yes there is underlying science in both fields but the individual is the one who crafts the final product. Not a book.

Actually, the yeast is the entity crafting the final product. By your logic, the brewer is just the guy in the kitchen who chops the celery, while the yeast is the head chef.

We take what we learn about brewing and apply that to brewing. We add "field" experience and lessons learned and apply those as well. Maybe Beer Engineer is a more apt term.

Actually, the chef understands the science and all of the ingredients and then puts it all together. Maybe the chef doesn't have that much of a knowledge of the science but has the ability to understand that when he does certain things he gets a good result. Just saying. Science is not the be all to end all. It is only part of the equation. You can understand science quite well and still make a beer that nobody wants to drink. It's a lot more than just science.

The yeast is one part of the puzzle. Then you have which grains you choose to use. You have mash temperature. You have water quality. You have the choice of hops and how many to use and when to add them. A lot of different variables. The brewer is the one who figures all of that out. Just like how a chef crafts a dish.

[HabeasCorpus]

I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.  You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.  If you're really interested obtain a DO meter and quantify it.

If a secondary fermenter enables you do to what you want then use it, even if you're just storing uncarbonated beer in it.

Can you link to the discussions where these "snobs" said you would get low quality beer by using a secondary?

And yet you can provide no proof of the level of oxidation that I am experiencing or that it in fact is negatively affecting my beer. Proof still matters if you are going to claim something. Just saying....

Scientific fact:

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.

My claim:

You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.

So I suggest that you measure your process and report back the DO level and all of this sets you off and makes you angry?

Please, set aside the alcohol and get some counseling.

Ease up. This is not the type of stuff that gives threads longevity.

The truth is that @coonmanxdog:

1.) Is paranoid. Makes "they said" type statements with no basis in order to prove themselves right?
2.) Can't back their years of experience with the reasoning that someone brewing for 5 years can?
3.) Makes "loud" and "flaunting" posts.
4.) Makes contradictory statements as the conversation progresses.
5.) Obviously isn't around a lot of people in real life and craves attention.
6.) Wants to be viewed as having knowledge or methods above an beyond others.

All of these indicate either "trolling" or a person suffering from paranoia, depression, loneliness, etc...  professional counseling is the answer.

My recommendation of counseling isn't an insult, it's for real.

[Big Monk]

And yet the point is not to "add something to the flavor of the beer". It is to get better clearing and less sediment and allow for easy storage. A completely different goal than what you just described.

Also totally achievable without transfer to a secondary vessel.

And maybe it is but not with the equipment that I now use.

Also I don't see a point in changing course if doing that change is not going to get me any better results in the end.

It works for you and your setup. That's not something that needs to be changed. For many others, it's used as a tool in the very few times it's actually needed.

[coonmanxdog]

I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.  You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.  If you're really interested obtain a DO meter and quantify it.

If a secondary fermenter enables you do to what you want then use it, even if you're just storing uncarbonated beer in it.

Can you link to the discussions where these "snobs" said you would get low quality beer by using a secondary?

And yet you can provide no proof of the level of oxidation that I am experiencing or that it in fact is negatively affecting my beer. Proof still matters if you are going to claim something. Just saying....

Scientific fact:

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.

My claim:

You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.

So I suggest that you measure your process and report back the DO level and all of this sets you off and makes you angry?

Please, set aside the alcohol and get some counseling.

Ease up. This is not the type of stuff that gives threads longevity.

The truth is that @coonmanxdog:

1.) Is paranoid. Makes "they said" type statements with no basis in order to prove themselves right?
2.) Can't back their years of experience with the reasoning that someone brewing for 5 years can?
3.) Makes "loud" and "flaunting" posts.
4.) Makes contradictory statements as the conversation progresses.
5.) Obviously isn't around a lot of people in real life and craves attention.
6.) Wants to be viewed as having knowledge or methods above an beyond others.

All of these indicate either "trolling" or a person suffering from paranoia, depression, loneliness, etc...  professional counseling is the answer.

My recommendation of counseling isn't an insult, it's for real.

LOL. That was hilarious and shows your complete lack of ability to do any actual critical thinking. Oh well.

BTW, where were my "contradictory statements"? I didn't see any.

Apparently when you have nothing to say you resort to personal attacks. It's OK, I reported that comment to mods.

[Iliff Ave]

Maybe shut this thread down? Coonman has been looking for a fight from the beginning for some unknown reason.

[dbeechum]

Locked - play nicely, please.