Author Topic: Westvleteren 12  (Read 1312 times)

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2020, 10:46:28 PM »
  thank you everyone for your input. I have been brewing for 7 years now, have a controlled fermenter box and have a HERMS electric system am able to Decoct  also.  I am going to try out the 2nd version with a 3 gallon brew to start out. I have found some info on brewing this and will take your input along with others to try this one out, will brew it in a month or so.  Below Is some info I was looking at .
     https://finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/06/water-profiles-for-westvleteren-12.html
 and …..https://finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/03/designing-westvleteren-12-clone.html

I would disregard the water alkalinity and just focus on ions like Calcium, Sulfate, Chloride, and Sodium. Don’t try to clone their water exactly, especially the alkalinity.
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Offline denny

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2020, 01:53:59 PM »
  thank you everyone for your input. I have been brewing for 7 years now, have a controlled fermenter box and have a HERMS electric system am able to Decoct  also.  I am going to try out the 2nd version with a 3 gallon brew to start out. I have found some info on brewing this and will take your input along with others to try this one out, will brew it in a month or so.  Below Is some info I was looking at .
     https://finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/06/water-profiles-for-westvleteren-12.html
 and …..https://finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/03/designing-westvleteren-12-clone.html

I would disregard the water alkalinity and just focus on ions like Calcium, Sulfate, Chloride, and Sodium. Don’t try to clone their water exactly, especially the alkalinity.

Exactly!
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Offline narvin

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2020, 03:54:26 PM »
  thank you everyone for your input. I have been brewing for 7 years now, have a controlled fermenter box and have a HERMS electric system am able to Decoct  also.  I am going to try out the 2nd version with a 3 gallon brew to start out. I have found some info on brewing this and will take your input along with others to try this one out, will brew it in a month or so.  Below Is some info I was looking at .
     https://finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/06/water-profiles-for-westvleteren-12.html
 and …..https://finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/03/designing-westvleteren-12-clone.html

I would disregard the water alkalinity and just focus on ions like Calcium, Sulfate, Chloride, and Sodium. Don’t try to clone their water exactly, especially the alkalinity.

Exactly!

They treat their water, although details are unknown.  You can bet it involves some alkalinity reduction though.  Especially since they (supposedly) don't use any dark malts, just the syrup for color, there is likely less acidity to balance it out.

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2020, 05:46:26 PM »
Admittedly it's not Westvleteren, but if the book titled 'Brew Like A Monk' is to be believed, Rochefort does not alter their high alkalinity water, and consequently admits to mashing at between pH 5.8 and 5.9.  Then (also per the book) sometime during the boil they always add a "mineral acid" (likely phosphoric acid on first presumption) and bring the Wort down to pH 5.2. 

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2020, 09:27:57 PM »
Admittedly it's not Westvleteren, but if the book titled 'Brew Like A Monk' is to be believed, Rochefort does not alter their high alkalinity water, and consequently admits to mashing at between pH 5.8 and 5.9.  Then (also per the book) sometime during the boil they always add a "mineral acid" (likely phosphoric acid on first presumption) and bring the Wort down to pH 5.2.

There’s likely more to that than is on the surface. I was never able to rectify the amount of acid shown in their brew logs with those pH values.
“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.“ Richard Feynman

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Offline BrewBama

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2020, 11:13:59 PM »
Well, they can’t give away the farm.


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2020, 11:22:26 PM »
Well, they can’t give away the farm.


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Oh for sure! I dug pretty deep on Rochefort about a year ago and documented it here at the AHA forum. I have a nagging suspicion that the numbers quoted in BLAM for their mash pH is too high to jive with the amount of phosphoric acid they definitely use (based on the picture of the brew day sheet from Rochefort).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 01:42:17 AM by Big Monk »
“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.“ Richard Feynman

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

www.themodernbrewhouse.com

Offline Silver_Is_Money

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2020, 01:21:52 AM »
Oh for sure! I dug pretty deep on Rochefort about a year ago and documented it here at the AHA forum. I have a nagging suspicion that the numbers quoted in BLAM for their mash pH is too high to jive with the amount of phosphoric acid the definitely use (based on the picture of the brew day sheet from Rochefort).

I'm looking at what I believe to be that picture right now, and I can't make out the number of liters of added acid due to it looking to me like an uncrossed  'A' or something.  What is the liter value of that "A" symbol?  Is it his way of writing a "1"?  Should I presume the phosphoric acid concentration to be 75%, (as seems to be common, at least in the UK), or 85%?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 01:26:16 AM by Silver_Is_Money »

Offline BrewBama

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2020, 01:30:11 AM »
A European's handwritten numbers look different from ours. The number 1 has an upswing, and the number 4 often looks like a short lightning bolt. 7(s) are crossed.


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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2020, 01:36:35 AM »
Oh for sure! I dug pretty deep on Rochefort about a year ago and documented it here at the AHA forum. I have a nagging suspicion that the numbers quoted in BLAM for their mash pH is too high to jive with the amount of phosphoric acid the definitely use (based on the picture of the brew day sheet from Rochefort).

I'm looking at what I believe to be that picture right now, and I can't make out the number of liters of added acid due to it looking to me like an uncrossed  'A' or something.  What is the liter value of that "A" symbol?  Is it his way of writing a "1"?  Should I presume the phosphoric acid concentration to be 75%, (as seems to be common, at least in the UK), or 85%?

It’s a 1.

We should move this conversation here:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=33089.0
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 01:41:43 AM by Big Monk »
“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.“ Richard Feynman

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

www.themodernbrewhouse.com

Offline denny

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2020, 01:52:30 PM »
Well, they can’t give away the farm.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Oh for sure! I dug pretty deep on Rochefort about a year ago and documented it here at the AHA forum. I have a nagging suspicion that the numbers quoted in BLAM for their mash pH is too high to jive with the amount of phosphoric acid they definitely use (based on the picture of the brew day sheet from Rochefort).

Why would I care about what their pH is instead of what my pH is?  I kinda see what you're saying, but isn't it more important that my pH is where I want it to be for the ingredients and techniques I use?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Big Monk

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2020, 02:19:16 PM »
Well, they can’t give away the farm.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Oh for sure! I dug pretty deep on Rochefort about a year ago and documented it here at the AHA forum. I have a nagging suspicion that the numbers quoted in BLAM for their mash pH is too high to jive with the amount of phosphoric acid they definitely use (based on the picture of the brew day sheet from Rochefort).

Why would I care about what their pH is instead of what my pH is?  I kinda see what you're saying, but isn't it more important that my pH is where I want it to be for the ingredients and techniques I use?

I completely agree. The research I did was for fun and when you have real values from a brewery you try to make sense of them. That’s all.

In this case I had their exact fermentable, their water profile, what they supposedly mash at, the amount of acid they use, their approximate vessel sizes, etc. so I did some analysis to try and give some credence to the pH numbers quoted in BLAM. Mostly for fun and mostly to understand their process and beers.

In the practical sense, I don’t really care about their pH so much as mine, so we agree 1000%.
“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.“ Richard Feynman

"Messieurs, c’est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." Louis Pasteur

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Offline mdyer909

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2020, 11:30:28 PM »
I’ve never tasted Westvleteren 12, but I was in a hipster sandwich shop a few years ago and they were marking down all the Christmas beers.  Must have been a Spring or Summer visit.  Anyway, I scored 3- 4 packs of St. Bernardus Christmas Ale for cheap.  Very nice beer.  Now I want to brew something like that in hopes of a normal Christmas.  Anyone familiar with it.  Some on the internet say it’s spiced, and others do not.

Offline Big Monk

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2020, 11:44:17 PM »
I’ve never tasted Westvleteren 12, but I was in a hipster sandwich shop a few years ago and they were marking down all the Christmas beers.  Must have been a Spring or Summer visit.  Anyway, I scored 3- 4 packs of St. Bernardus Christmas Ale for cheap.  Very nice beer.  Now I want to brew something like that in hopes of a normal Christmas.  Anyone familiar with it.  Some on the internet say it’s spiced, and others do not.

If it were me I’d just brew something close to St. Bernardus ABT 12 (or similar to Westvleteren 12) and spice it.
“It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.“ Richard Feynman

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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Westvleteren 12
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2020, 11:26:52 PM »
  So has anyone brewed this beer and which recipe did you try #1 or #2 or another one? How did it turn out?
    I did get a chance to try a bottle of Westvleteren 12 with a date of 21.11.21 on the cap. I got it for Judging at a competition (my first time). When the judging was finished they let you choose a number, my number was 12. I opened it at thanksgiving for all to sample, it get great reviews.
    Wish I had more bottles to keep around for that One very special occasion and some for just hording.

About a year ago I spent the day (yeah, pretty much the whole day) drinking Westy at In de Vrede.  Bought several cases, so it became my every day beer for a couple weeks while I was there.  It is not made with the complex recipe A.

lol, very interesting. hate to ask, but any takeaways from that? it sounds like getting to know a very famous beer as well as it can be known. I've always had a strong interest in the great and strong belgians, kind of a homebrewing mount everest.


I’ve never tasted Westvleteren 12, but I was in a hipster sandwich shop a few years ago and they were marking down all the Christmas beers.  Must have been a Spring or Summer visit.  Anyway, I scored 3- 4 packs of St. Bernardus Christmas Ale for cheap.  Very nice beer.  Now I want to brew something like that in hopes of a normal Christmas.  Anyone familiar with it.  Some on the internet say it’s spiced, and others do not.

i love st. bernardus' yeast and what they do with it. i would choose their yeast profile over any other big belgians i can think of.