Author Topic: K-97  (Read 914 times)

Offline denny

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Re: K-97
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2020, 03:00:11 PM »
Would K-97 work for a Kolsch? If not, what dry yeast wold you suggest?

Not IMO.  AFAIAC, WY2565 is the ultimate kolsch yeast.

Just pitched a 4th gen 2565 (4 months old).....after 36 hours, nothing. Looking for a dry yeast for emergency back up.

You may be out of luck on dry in that case.  Did you make a starter with the 2565 slurry?
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Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: K-97
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2020, 08:07:46 PM »
You may be out of luck on dry in that case.  Did you make a starter with the 2565 slurry?

I am curious as to if TXFlyGuy was serially repitching this culture like he mentioned in another thread.  Usually, a four-month-old culture is still good to go, but when one serially overpitches a culture, it loses its viability more quickly due to lack of new cell growth in each successive batch.  The culture could have been revived if he had mixed a small amount of the slurry with about 250ml of new aerated 1.040 starter wort, waited until it hit high krausen before decanting a fraction or all of the liquid portion of the starter into about 1L of fresh aerated starter wort, which would leave behind all of the old dead cells.  The resulting new culture would be mostly new cells. The old double drop system worked on this principle.  Dropping after the wort started to ferment left behind the break and dead yeast cells while adding a little O2 to a yeast culture that more than had O2 or O3-level O2 requirements.

Offline tommymorris

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Re: K-97
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2020, 08:29:23 PM »
You may be out of luck on dry in that case.  Did you make a starter with the 2565 slurry?

I am curious as to if TXFlyGuy was serially repitching this culture like he mentioned in another thread.  Usually, a four-month-old culture is still good to go, but when one serially overpitches a culture, it loses its viability more quickly due to lack of new cell growth in each successive batch.  The culture could have been revived if he had mixed a small amount of the slurry with about 250ml of new aerated 1.040 starter wort, waited until it hit high krausen before decanting a fraction or all of the liquid portion of the starter into about 1L of fresh aerated starter wort, which would leave behind all of the old dead cells.  The resulting new culture would be mostly new cells. The old double drop system worked on this principle.  Dropping after the wort started to ferment left behind the break and dead yeast cells while adding a little O2 to a yeast culture that more than had O2 or O3-level O2 requirements.
What does this mean?

“...that more than had O2 or O3-level O2 requirements.”

Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: K-97
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2020, 01:29:43 AM »
Would K-97 work for a Kolsch? If not, what dry yeast wold you suggest?

Not IMO.  AFAIAC, WY2565 is the ultimate kolsch yeast.

Just pitched a 4th gen 2565 (4 months old).....after 36 hours, nothing. Looking for a dry yeast for emergency back up.

You may be out of luck on dry in that case.  Did you make a starter with the 2565 slurry?

Yes, made a starter using fresh sterile wort. Left the yeast until it looked ready to pitch. And now the good news, it is very actively fermenting. Just got off to a slower than usual start.
I’m used to this process starting to produce strong fermentation within a few hours.

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: K-97
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2020, 01:21:30 PM »
“...that more than had O2 or O3-level O2 requirements.”

Those ratings are from Brian Kirsop's paper entitled "Oxygen in Brewery Fermentation."  I kept seeing references to these values while reading culture descriptions in the NCYC.

Class O1 - yeasts whose oxygen requirement is satisfied if wort is half saturated with air
Class O2 - yeasts whose oxygen requirement is satisfied if wort is saturated with air
Class O3 - yeasts whose oxygen requirement is satisfied by oxygen-saturated wort
Class O4 - yeasts whose oxygen requirement is not satisfied by oxygen-saturated wort


NCYC 1333 is a prime example of a yeast culture with O3/O4 O2 requirements.  I had it in my bank until I took my hiatus. NCYC 1333 is a Yorkshire strain.  Most Yorkshire strains are at least O3.  That is why Yorkshire breweries use open fermentation vessels equipped with fishtails to re-aerate wort while it is actively fermenting.  The multi-strain Ringwood culture is also a Yorkshire culture, which is why the Alan Pugsley installed Peter Austin and Partners breweries all have open fermentation vessels equipped with fishtails.

Here is the basic information for NCYC 1333:


Strain Information

    Information         Flocculent. O3/O4. Head forming Yorkshire Stone Square type recommended for bottled Pale ale.
    Depositor            British Brewery
    Deposit Name      Saccharomyces cerevisiae
    Month of deposit  January
    Deposit Year        1974
    Habitat                Ale production strain - Yorkshire Stone Square type recommended for bottled Pale ale.


Here is the vial in which the NCYC shipped NCYC 1333 as a slant (slope in British terms):



Here is what NCYC looks like after the brown head has been skimmed and the second head has formed:
 


When a culture is described as "head forming" in a culture collection, that is what the depositor meant.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 01:23:06 PM by Saccharomyces »

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: K-97
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2020, 01:46:21 PM »
I would like to add that I am willing to bet that the most popular liquid brewing strains with amateur brewers are those that are either O1 or O2. While dry strains have made wort oxygenation less critical due to being propagated with a medium that is held under the Crabtree threshold and continuously fed O2, liquid strains are all propagated with a medium that is above the Crabtree threshold; therefore, all liquid strains require the addition of O2 at some level at time of pitching. New brewers tend to gravitate to dry yeast because they tend to have the least knowledge when it comes to aeration and yeast handling.  Due to the significantly increased quality of the dry brewers yeast that is being produced today, a lot of brewers start with dry yeast and never switch to liquid yeast. 

Offline BrewBama

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K-97
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2020, 02:57:19 PM »
I must be an anomaly. I started batch 1 with liquid yeast and moved to dry after being frustrated for years with the hassle of shipping with ice packs, making starters, hoping it’s alive, and stocking ‘emergency’ dry packs “just in case’’ because “dry yeast always works”. That didn’t make sense to me, so I just skipped the BS and went straight to the sure thing.


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« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 03:10:02 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline tommymorris

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Re: K-97
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2020, 05:08:14 PM »
“...that more than had O2 or O3-level O2 requirements.”

Those ratings are from Brian Kirsop's paper entitled "Oxygen in Brewery Fermentation."  I kept seeing references to these values while reading culture descriptions in the NCYC.

Class O1 - yeasts whose oxygen requirement is satisfied if wort is half saturated with air
Class O2 - yeasts whose oxygen requirement is satisfied if wort is saturated with air
Class O3 - yeasts whose oxygen requirement is satisfied by oxygen-saturated wort
Class O4 - yeasts whose oxygen requirement is not satisfied by oxygen-saturated wort


NCYC 1333 is a prime example of a yeast culture with O3/O4 O2 requirements.  I had it in my bank until I took my hiatus. NCYC 1333 is a Yorkshire strain.  Most Yorkshire strains are at least O3.  That is why Yorkshire breweries use open fermentation vessels equipped with fishtails to re-aerate wort while it is actively fermenting.  The multi-strain Ringwood culture is also a Yorkshire culture, which is why the Alan Pugsley installed Peter Austin and Partners breweries all have open fermentation vessels equipped with fishtails.

Here is the basic information for NCYC 1333:


Strain Information

    Information         Flocculent. O3/O4. Head forming Yorkshire Stone Square type recommended for bottled Pale ale.
    Depositor            British Brewery
    Deposit Name      Saccharomyces cerevisiae
    Month of deposit  January
    Deposit Year        1974
    Habitat                Ale production strain - Yorkshire Stone Square type recommended for bottled Pale ale.


Here is the vial in which the NCYC shipped NCYC 1333 as a slant (slope in British terms):



Here is what NCYC looks like after the brown head has been skimmed and the second head has formed:
 


When a culture is described as "head forming" in a culture collection, that is what the depositor meant.
Very interesting. Thanks!

Offline fredthecat

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Re: K-97
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2020, 06:10:36 PM »
I would like to add that I am willing to bet that the most popular liquid brewing strains with amateur brewers are those that are either O1 or O2. While dry strains have made wort oxygenation less critical due to being propagated with a medium that is held under the Crabtree threshold and continuously fed O2, liquid strains are all propagated with a medium that is above the Crabtree threshold; therefore, all liquid strains require the addition of O2 at some level at time of pitching. New brewers tend to gravitate to dry yeast because they tend to have the least knowledge when it comes to aeration and yeast handling.  Due to the significantly increased quality of the dry brewers yeast that is being produced today, a lot of brewers start with dry yeast and never switch to liquid yeast.

awesome pics and super detailed info in other post

yup, its difficult to get yorkshire yeast for one, it exists but i don't see it sold at my online homebrew retailers that i use.


I must be an anomaly. I started batch 1 with liquid yeast and moved to dry after being frustrated for years with the hassle of shipping with ice packs, making starters, hoping it’s alive, and stocking ‘emergency’ dry packs “just in case’’ because “dry yeast always works”. That didn’t make sense to me, so I just skipped the BS and went straight to the sure thing.

my most embarassing homebrew truth is that i only very rarely used liquid yeast other than within the last year of homebrewing because no LHBS had liquid around here. So i was always aching to try more "authentic" yeasts. im pretty happy with the taste quality of liquid so I couldn't imagine switching back.

Offline Saccharomyces

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Re: K-97
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2020, 07:29:13 PM »
I must be an anomaly. I started batch 1 with liquid yeast and moved to dry after being frustrated for years with the hassle of shipping with ice packs, making starters, hoping it’s alive, and stocking ‘emergency’ dry packs “just in case’’ because “dry yeast always works”. That didn’t make sense to me, so I just skipped the BS and went straight to the sure thing.

It is a testament that brewers who start with dry yeast can now achieve the results that they desire with dry yeast.  That used to not be the case.  That being said, the fact that you started with liquid yeast does make you kind of anomaly.  I know that are people who did/do, but most people get introduced to the hobby via a kit that contains dry yeast.  I also feel your pain when it comes to having limited options for liquid yeast.  The reason why I started to plate and slant my own yeast was due to the fact that Wyeast was the only game in town and they did not ship to the East Coast during the warm and hot months.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 01:18:37 PM by Saccharomyces »

Offline TXFlyGuy

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Re: K-97
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2020, 10:55:46 AM »
I must be an anomaly. I started batch 1 with liquid yeast and moved to dry after being frustrated for years with the hassle of shipping with ice packs, making starters, hoping it’s alive, and stocking ‘emergency’ dry packs “just in case’’ because “dry yeast always works”. That didn’t make sense to me, so I just skipped the BS and went straight to the sure thing.


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Another brewer who has broken the code.