[neuse]

Megary: I found your comments useful - thank you.

[tommymorris]

Crystal malt is kind of the defining ingredient for an Amber ale. I think that the idea that "too much Crystal malt" is going to lead to an overly sweet or cloying beer is an old brewer's myth dating back to times when many homebrewers were using extract + steeping grains and didn't necessarily have access to the quality of yeast that we have today. Underattenuated beer with a lot of crystal malt is pretty blah. A well-attenuated Amber ale with enough IBU's and hop character to balance the Crystal can make for a fantastic beer.

I agree, but that's the trick isn't it.  In my opinion, there are a lot more failures than success stories.  Maybe the pendulum is starting to swing in favor of more appropriate crystal usage, but I'll continue to be skeptical.  I've had too many overly sweet caramel/crystal beers.  Maybe it's me.  Could be.

I'm with ya

I have had plenty of bad beers and made plenty myself. But, this thread was about good beers with lots of caramel malts

Well...apologies for derailing here.  Cheers!

I was just joking around.

[Iliff Ave]

Crystal malt is kind of the defining ingredient for an Amber ale. I think that the idea that "too much Crystal malt" is going to lead to an overly sweet or cloying beer is an old brewer's myth dating back to times when many homebrewers were using extract + steeping grains and didn't necessarily have access to the quality of yeast that we have today. Underattenuated beer with a lot of crystal malt is pretty blah. A well-attenuated Amber ale with enough IBU's and hop character to balance the Crystal can make for a fantastic beer.

I agree, but that's the trick isn't it.  In my opinion, there are a lot more failures than success stories.  Maybe the pendulum is starting to swing in favor of more appropriate crystal usage, but I'll continue to be skeptical.  I've had too many overly sweet caramel/crystal beers.  Maybe it's me.  Could be.

I'm with ya

I have had plenty of bad beers and made plenty myself. But, this thread was about good beers with lots of caramel malts

understood

[hopfenundmalz]

The thinking that crystal malts are bad sort of started when Vinnie Curlizo said they clash with hops. That's what people heard.

More accurately he said the higher Lovibond crystal malts, C60 or so and above had dark fruit flavors such as raisins, plums, and dark sugars that would clash with piney and citrusy hops. He advocated using less that C40 colored crystal malts which are mainly sweet.

I wonder how the new fruity hops would go with a dark crystal malts?

[tommymorris]

Crystal malt is kind of the defining ingredient for an Amber ale. I think that the idea that "too much Crystal malt" is going to lead to an overly sweet or cloying beer is an old brewer's myth dating back to times when many homebrewers were using extract + steeping grains and didn't necessarily have access to the quality of yeast that we have today. Underattenuated beer with a lot of crystal malt is pretty blah. A well-attenuated Amber ale with enough IBU's and hop character to balance the Crystal can make for a fantastic beer.

I agree, but that's the trick isn't it.  In my opinion, there are a lot more failures than success stories.  Maybe the pendulum is starting to swing in favor of more appropriate crystal usage, but I'll continue to be skeptical.  I've had too many overly sweet caramel/crystal beers.  Maybe it's me.  Could be.

Which is how I developed my Waldo Lake Amber recipe.  Amber flavor, but not sweet. It was popular enough that a couple companies used to sell kits of itl

As an aside, when looking for Amber recipes to try I came across Waldo Lake Amber. One thing about your recipes is there are many varying copies of all of them online.  You and Drew should publish a book that is the definitive copy of all your homebrew recipes.

PS. I did find your version from the old AHA recipe wiki on the way back machine. You put a link to it on a bulletin board and it came up in a Google search.

[Megary]

Crystal malt is kind of the defining ingredient for an Amber ale. I think that the idea that "too much Crystal malt" is going to lead to an overly sweet or cloying beer is an old brewer's myth dating back to times when many homebrewers were using extract + steeping grains and didn't necessarily have access to the quality of yeast that we have today. Underattenuated beer with a lot of crystal malt is pretty blah. A well-attenuated Amber ale with enough IBU's and hop character to balance the Crystal can make for a fantastic beer.

I agree, but that's the trick isn't it.  In my opinion, there are a lot more failures than success stories.  Maybe the pendulum is starting to swing in favor of more appropriate crystal usage, but I'll continue to be skeptical.  I've had too many overly sweet caramel/crystal beers.  Maybe it's me.  Could be.

I'm with ya

I have had plenty of bad beers and made plenty myself. But, this thread was about good beers with lots of caramel malts

Well...apologies for derailing here.  Cheers!

I was just joking around.

Ahh, I get it now.  Sometimes I need jokes explained to me.   

Not sure how many get Craft Beer and Brewing Magazine, but there's an excellent article in the last issue on American Amber Ale.  Much is said about how the current brewers who are offering these 90's throwback beers have sort of reinvented them for today's palates and with today's ingredients.  That they are less reliant on Crystal Malts and with a bigger Hops presence shouldn't come as a surprise. 

Interestingly, two of the recipes in the article use Great Western Caramel Steam Malt.  Never heard of it before.  Anyone? 
From Great Western:
The innovative process we use to create Caramel Steam turns Northwest barley into a mighty malt. Caramel Steam creates a delicate sweetness with reduced astringency allowing other flavors to shine through.

[denny]

The thinking that crystal malts are bad sort of started when Vinnie Curlizo said they clash with hops. That's what people heard.

More accurately he said the higher Lovibond crystal malts, C60 or so and above had dark fruit flavors such as raisins, plums, and dark sugars that would clash with piney and citrusy hops. He advocated using less that C40 colored crystal malts which are mainly sweet.

I wonder how the new fruity hops would go with a dark crystal malts?

In my experience,  for my tastes,  not so great. And to say C60 clashes with hops is given lie by beers  like SN Celebration. If Vinnie would have spoken about his tastes only, no problem. But a blanket statement is over generalization.

[denny]

Crystal malt is kind of the defining ingredient for an Amber ale. I think that the idea that "too much Crystal malt" is going to lead to an overly sweet or cloying beer is an old brewer's myth dating back to times when many homebrewers were using extract + steeping grains and didn't necessarily have access to the quality of yeast that we have today. Underattenuated beer with a lot of crystal malt is pretty blah. A well-attenuated Amber ale with enough IBU's and hop character to balance the Crystal can make for a fantastic beer.

I agree, but that's the trick isn't it.  In my opinion, there are a lot more failures than success stories.  Maybe the pendulum is starting to swing in favor of more appropriate crystal usage, but I'll continue to be skeptical.  I've had too many overly sweet caramel/crystal beers.  Maybe it's me.  Could be.

Which is how I developed my Waldo Lake Amber recipe.  Amber flavor, but not sweet. It was popular enough that a couple companies used to sell kits of itl

As an aside, when looking for Amber recipes to try I came across Waldo Lake Amber. One thing about your recipes is there are many varying copies of all of them online.  You and Drew should publish a book that is the definitive copy of all your homebrew recipes.

PS. I did find your version from the old AHA recipe wiki on the way back machine. You put a link to it on a bulletin board and it came up in a Google search.

Someone would have to care enough to ask us to do a book.

[ScallyWag]

Someone would have to care enough to ask us to do a book.

Denny, would you guys please do a book of recipes?

There.

(Oh, I suppose you may have meant a publisher or something.  But we care too!)

[denny]

Someone would have to care enough to ask us to do a book.

Denny, would you guys please do a book of recipes?

There.

(Oh, I suppose you may have meant a publisher or something.  But we care too!)

 

Thank you

[erockrph]

The thinking that crystal malts are bad sort of started when Vinnie Curlizo said they clash with hops. That's what people heard.

More accurately he said the higher Lovibond crystal malts, C60 or so and above had dark fruit flavors such as raisins, plums, and dark sugars that would clash with piney and citrusy hops. He advocated using less that C40 colored crystal malts which are mainly sweet.

I wonder how the new fruity hops would go with a dark crystal malts?

In my experience,  for my tastes,  not so great. And to say C60 clashes with hops is given lie by beers  like SN Celebration. If Vinnie would have spoken about his tastes only, no problem. But a blanket statement is over generalization.

Arrogant Bastard is believed by many to use Special B, which is about as dark of a crystal as you can get, in a beer that is quite highly hopped.

Frankly, I think the old school pine/citrus hops work just fine with darker crystal malts. I've become a fan of Simpson's DRC, and with a light hand it pairs quite well with hops like Simcoe and Amarillo. Newer tropical/passionfruit hops tend to get drowned out by most rich character coming from the malt bill, in my experience. This could be dark crystal malts, or something like a lot of Munich or Aromatic.

[chinaski]

[/quote]

Someone would have to care enough to ask us to do a book.
[/quote]
Do a recipe book that isn't solely a recipe book (which I think you've done before)- I enjoy books that tell good stories behind the recipes that have a unique voice to them.  Michael Dawson's Mash Maker is a good one with very solid recipes in them.

[fredthecat]

Arrogant Bastard is believed by many to use Special B, which is about as dark of a crystal as you can get, in a beer that is quite highly hopped.

Frankly, I think the old school pine/citrus hops work just fine with darker crystal malts. I've become a fan of Simpson's DRC, and with a light hand it pairs quite well with hops like Simcoe and Amarillo. Newer tropical/passionfruit hops tend to get drowned out by most rich character coming from the malt bill, in my experience. This could be dark crystal malts, or something like a lot of Munich or Aromatic.

agree big time, it makes me sound old, but i seriously miss those attempts at both serious malt and obvious amounts of crystal and assertive piney/dank hops. they are all but gone around here. its all gone downhill since san diego style...

[jeffy]

Someone would have to care enough to ask us to do a book.
[/quote]
Do a recipe book that isn't solely a recipe book (which I think you've done before)- I enjoy books that tell good stories behind the recipes that have a unique voice to them.  Michael Dawson's Mash Maker is a good one with very solid recipes in them.
[/quote]
Have you got a copy of Homebrew All Stars?

[denny]

Someone would have to care enough to ask us to do a book.
[/quote]
Do a recipe book that isn't solely a recipe book (which I think you've done before)- I enjoy books that tell good stories behind the recipes that have a unique voice to them.  Michael Dawson's Mash Maker is a good one with very solid recipes in them.
[/quote]

That's pretty much what we've always done. But doing a book takes a publisher who wants the book.