[fredthecat]

any love for those gulden draak/piraat style beers and any suggested recipes?

-9 to 11% ABV plus
-no phenolics
-boozy
-caramel and lots of sweet flavours
-perception of maltiness, even munich malt taste

i dont have one in front of me, but anyone have recommendations on brewing these?

im looking at pils/pale, ~10% munich, syrup, maybe crystal malt and syrup/cane sugar

[ynotbrusum]

From the AHA recipe clone section for a similar BGSA:

Ingredients:

10 lb (4.53 kg) Belgian Pilsner malt
1 lb (0.45 kg) Wheat malt
8 oz (0.23 kg) Acidulated malt (more if your water is high pH)
8 oz (0.23 kg) Flaked Oats
8 oz (0.23 kg) Flaked Corn
4-8 oz (113-227 g) Rice Hulls (depending on your system)
2 lb (0.91 kg) Belgian Rock Candy Sugar (if syrup, use 3 lb)
1 oz (28 g) Styrian Golding hops (FWH)
2 oz (56 g) Styrian Golding hops (80 min)
1 oz (28 g) Czech Saaz hops (10 min)
2 oz (56 g) Czech Saaz hops (whirlpool)
Irish Moss (15 min)
Yeast Nutrient (15 min)
Belgian yeast: WLP 570, Wyeast 3787, WLP 510 (a bit less estery), Wyeast 3522, are just a few good ones
Specifications:

Yield: 5.5 gal (20.8 L)

Original Gravity: 1.086

Final Gravity: 1.015

ABV: 9.50%

IBU: 45-50

SRM: 6.5

Directions:

Mash schedule: 131° F (55° C) for 15 minutes; 146-148° F (63-64° C) for 30 minutes; 152° F (67° C) for 40 minutes; 158-162° F (70-72° C) for 15 minutes; mash out to 168° F (76° C( for 30 minutes. Collect runnings, adding first wort hop addition to the kettle. Boil 90 minutes. Cool to 70° F (21° C) as quickly as possible and pitch yeast. If oxygen injection is possible, do it! If not, shake the hell out of the carboy or use another method for aeration. Allow primary fermentation at 66-72° F (19-22° C) for 10 days. Then slow bring temperature down 5° F per day until you reach 33-42° F (1-6° C). Condition at this temperature for 6-8 weeks. Carbonate and enjoy.

[fredthecat]

From the AHA recipe clone section for a similar BGSA:

Ingredients:

10 lb (4.53 kg) Belgian Pilsner malt
1 lb (0.45 kg) Wheat malt
8 oz (0.23 kg) Acidulated malt (more if your water is high pH)
8 oz (0.23 kg) Flaked Oats
8 oz (0.23 kg) Flaked Corn
4-8 oz (113-227 g) Rice Hulls (depending on your system)
2 lb (0.91 kg) Belgian Rock Candy Sugar (if syrup, use 3 lb)
1 oz (28 g) Styrian Golding hops (FWH)
2 oz (56 g) Styrian Golding hops (80 min)
1 oz (28 g) Czech Saaz hops (10 min)
2 oz (56 g) Czech Saaz hops (whirlpool)
Irish Moss (15 min)
Yeast Nutrient (15 min)
Belgian yeast: WLP 570, Wyeast 3787, WLP 510 (a bit less estery), Wyeast 3522, are just a few good ones
Specifications:

Yield: 5.5 gal (20.8 L)

Original Gravity: 1.086

Final Gravity: 1.015

ABV: 9.50%

IBU: 45-50

SRM: 6.5

Directions:

Mash schedule: 131° F (55° C) for 15 minutes; 146-148° F (63-64° C) for 30 minutes; 152° F (67° C) for 40 minutes; 158-162° F (70-72° C) for 15 minutes; mash out to 168° F (76° C( for 30 minutes. Collect runnings, adding first wort hop addition to the kettle. Boil 90 minutes. Cool to 70° F (21° C) as quickly as possible and pitch yeast. If oxygen injection is possible, do it! If not, shake the hell out of the carboy or use another method for aeration. Allow primary fermentation at 66-72° F (19-22° C) for 10 days. Then slow bring temperature down 5° F per day until you reach 33-42° F (1-6° C). Condition at this temperature for 6-8 weeks. Carbonate and enjoy.

thank you, i somehow forgot the term BGSA and BGDA. excellent, that recipe was not what i was envisioning but i like the idea especially with some flaked oats in it and significant hopping. very interdasting, its actually really forming in my mind now

[denny]

any love for those gulden draak/piraat style beers and any suggested recipes?

-9 to 11% ABV plus
-no phenolics
-boozy
-caramel and lots of sweet flavours
-perception of maltiness, even munich malt taste

i dont have one in front of me, but anyone have recommendations on brewing these?

im looking at pils/pale, ~10% munich, syrup, maybe crystal malt and syrup/cane sugar

For no phenolic, use WY1388. Other than that, I wonder if we've been drinking the same beer. I don't get any Munich, or caramel. Very little sweetness. Stylewise it's a BGSA. I'll try to pick some up and reassess it, but either im misremembering or possibly what you're getting is past its prime.

[HopDen]

I definitely have an affinity for Belgian style beers! I mean what's not to like?!? Next to my line-up of lagers on rotation it is all beers belgian. If you have the book Brew Like A Monk there are some great recipes. If not, then I highly recommend that you purchase because it has a wealth of knowledge and should help you develop your belgian style beers.

[denny]

Just checked BLAM a d it doesn't seem to have Piraat. I'll do more digging later today. One thing Imlearn3d is that after Van Steenburghe had great success with Gulden Draak, they launched Piraatbalong the same lines. Both supposedly use wine yeast, although I'm  not certain that's the only yeast they use. Looking at a Pic of Piraatl it's darker than I recall, so there my be some Munich in there.

[fredthecat]

yes, munich isnt the right word, but just an enhanced malt/caramel/sweet focus not attempting to get into the dark fruit/roasted territory at all but far from pale. my notes on a gulden draak said "candied popcorn" i think i meant caramel corn. admittedly i havent even had it more than a few times, but have had a variety of adjacent beers of this type as well.
 my brief notes actually say "harsh tough phenolic spice" lol, which didnt come up in my mind. i mnay have mixed up a bunch of the strong for the sake of strong almost meme named belgian beers in the squat bottles.

but i think conceptually i want a non-phenolic caramel-corn, strong malt in the realm of vienna and an amount of munich. with a variety of low fruity esters and alcohol.

yes ive enjoyed BLAM, its nice and the enjoyable way its written i might read it again some time.

[HopDen]

Just checked BLAM a d it doesn't seem to have Piraat. I'll do more digging later today. One thing Imlearn3d is that after Van Steenburghe had great success with Gulden Draak, they launched Piraatbalong the same lines. Both supposedly use wine yeast, although I'm  not certain that's the only yeast they use. Looking at a Pic of Piraatl it's darker than I recall, so there my be some Munich in there.

Correct me if I'm wrong please. If I remember, the use of wine yeast was used in a secondary fermentation? I can't remember where I read that so I apologize. Certainly the wine yeast would take the fermentation down very dry. So it reasons to me that it would be used in unison with a primary strain.

[denny]

Just checked BLAM a d it doesn't seem to have Piraat. I'll do more digging later today. One thing Imlearn3d is that after Van Steenburghe had great success with Gulden Draak, they launched Piraatbalong the same lines. Both supposedly use wine yeast, although I'm  not certain that's the only yeast they use. Looking at a Pic of Piraatl it's darker than I recall, so there my be some Munich in there.

Correct me if I'm wrong please. If I remember, the use of wine yeast was used in a secondary fermentation? I can't remember where I read that so I apologize. Certainly the wine yeast would take the fermentation down very dry. So it reasons to me that it would be used in unison with a primary strain.

Not sure how it's used, just saw reference to it. Wine yeast doesn't necessarily dry out a ferment due to its lack of ability to ferment maltotriose (IIRC).

I'm drinking one right now. Low level of sweetness balanced by what I'd guess is maybe 35 IBU. Low level of what I consider the typical Belgian phenolic. Sweetness comes out more as it warms and the carbonation dies down. Very high carb level which gives a bite on first sip that cuts the sweetness. Medium body which accentuates sweetness. Not as "digestible" as some Belgian beers, but very much in keeping with the concept of a Belgian amber ale.

[dmtaylor]

These are some of my favorite beers on the planet!  I haven't brewed a Gulden Draak or Piraat clone attempt yet, but my current thinking is that they likely use a caramel malt along the lines of CaraVienne or other European equivalent of Crystal 20, and for yeasts I might try Lallemand Farmhouse (lower attenuation ~80%) or Fermentis BE-256 (higher atten closer to ~86%).  These should both produce some phenols as well as soft esters such as pear and apple but of course this also depends on the fermentation temperature and probably pitch rate, etc.  In the Gulden Draak I would also add a charge of roasted barley and probably some Special B (would not do either of these for Piraat).  Just thinking out loud.  Whatever you try brewing, please let us know your final recipe and how it turns out!