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Author Topic: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?  (Read 10671 times)

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2015, 02:18:25 pm »
IMO, HBT is a cesspool of misinformation.

 ;D   +1000


Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2015, 02:43:39 pm »
FWIW, plenty of breweries use compressed air.
Sierra Nevada uses sterile filtered air for most of the beers with the Chico yeast. Bigfoot is open fermented. I don't know what they do for their lagers.
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Offline Joe Sr.

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2015, 03:05:25 pm »
FWIW, plenty of breweries use compressed air.
Sierra Nevada uses sterile filtered air for most of the beers with the Chico yeast. Bigfoot is open fermented. I don't know what they do for their lagers.

Don't they know that they're not doing it in the absolute best way possible?  They could be making better beer if only...

I had to go check out HBT after reading this thread.  There are people over there who know the absolute best way of doing everything. 

But seriously, the dude talking about pure O2 making a night and day difference in his beer is a pompous goof.  I have changed many processes over the years, and none made a night and day difference. 

I've had incremental improvement over a long period of time, so perhaps if you benchmarked my beer made more than 15 years ago with no thought to fermentation temp, no aeration (other than splashing), and no starter against the beer I'm making today you would get night/day differences.  But that didn't happen over night or from one simple process change.
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S. cerevisiae

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2015, 03:43:48 pm »
To which of course I was told that I basically had no frame of reference and that I needed to read all the science behind it and read "Yeast" and if all the breweries in the world are doing it why was I ignorant of the fact that better beer can't be made without Pure O2......

Next time one of those one-year-wonder brewers goes off on a tangent about how one cannot brew good beer without using pure O2, ask him (it will be a him because women do not suffer from too much testosterone syndrome) what O2 is used for in a fermentation and if there is anything that a brewer can do to limit the O2 load in a fermentation.  You can then sit back with a bag of popcorn as he scrambles to come up with a coherent answer. 

Yeast use O2 to synthesize ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acids (UFA).  They do so by shunting O2 and a small amount of carbon (sugar is carbon bound to water) to the respirative (aerobic) metabolic pathway (all reproduction in wort is fermentative due to the fact that brewing yeast strains are Crabtree positive).  Ergosterol and UFAs make the plasma cell membrane more pliable, which, in turn, allows nutrients to enter and waste products to exit the cell.

One of the reasons why aeration is such a hot topic today is because more and more home brewers are pitching quiescent yeast cells (thanks in large part to disinformation being spread on HBT).  Twenty years ago, the average home brewer who made a starter knowingly or unknowingly pitched at high krausen.   The drill was to smack a pack of Wyeast (White Labs was a non-entity for the most part) the morning before brew day, allow it to swell during the day, make starter in the evening, and pitch the starter the next day.  Today, people are making starters days in advance and allowing them to ferment to completion, so that they can decant the supernatant.  By doing so, they are increasing the initial O2 load placed on the wort when the culture is pitched. 

All allowing a starter to ferment past high krausen does is waste ergosterol and UFA reserves because the mother cells that were in suspension while O2 was still in solution share the ergosterol and UFA reserves that they built with their daughter cells.   High krausen occurs as the culture reaches maximum cell density.  All replication beyond this point is for replacement only, which means that we are wasting ergosterol and UFAs when we allow a starter to ferment out.

High gravity and high alcohol beers share one thing in common; namely, the environment is hard on yeast cells, which means that cell membrane health is even more critical in high gravity/high alcohol environments. What makes cell membranes healthy? Ergosterol and UFAs make cell membranes healthy.  The reason why high gravity and high alcohol solutions are hard on yeast cells is because both environments draw water out of the cells.  In the case of high gravity wort, a phenomenon known as osmotic pressure is responsible for drawing water out of the cells.  Osmotic pressure is the result of the solute levels being different on opposite sides of a semi-permeable membrane.  Water is drawn to the side with the higher solute content (the hypertonic side), which is the wort.  In the case of high alcohol, alcohol is hygroscopic.  Anyone who has added "dry gas" to his/her gasoline tank in the winter to deal with condensation in the fuel supply has witnessed alcohol's ability to attract and hold water molecules.

In both cases, the lost of water inside of the cells results in the loss of something known as turgor pressure.  Turgor pressure is the pressure inside of a cell that pushes the plasma membrane up against the cell wall.  Loss of turgor pressure causes wrinkles in the membrane.  It also causes the cells to shrink.  Some of the cells cannot handle the pressure difference and implode.  Those that survive are not able pass nutrients and waste products as freely as they would be able to do in a less hypertonic solution. 

With that said, how do we reduce O2 demands when pitching?  We do so by pitching a high krausen.  In the case high gravity wort, we pitch a larger number of cells at high krausen in order to account for the fact that many cells may not be able to handle the osmotic pressure.

Finally, why do commercial breweries use pure O2?  Well, most commercial breweries repitch bottom-cropped yeast.  Bottom-cropped yeast is taken after the cells have reached quiescence; therefore, they have low ergosterol and UFA reserves.  Another reason why commercial breweries use pure O2 more than likely has to do with efficiency.  Injecting pure O2 is definitely more efficient than pumping air into wort.  Time is money and so is energy.

Quote
You know the drill. Basically the OP had asked for some advice and about 10 really nice and helpful comments were left and invariably someone had to say, "... If you don't do it this way your beer will suck..." Which is something that seems unnecessary to me.

Friends don't let friends read or post on HBT.   :)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 03:50:57 pm by S. cerevisiae »

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2015, 03:45:35 pm »
I mostly shake the crap out of my fermenters (carboys) through rapid swirling providing the beer is under 1.075 OG and NOT a lager.  Pretty much after that, I bust out my O2 stone and use that for beers stronger than 1.075 and medium strength lagers pre-chilled to 48-50F.  I rarely have attenuation issues unless it is a new recipe I am working on for the first time which can easily be adjusted for the next brew session. 

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2015, 03:47:20 pm »
Don't they know that they're not doing it in the absolute best way possible?  They could be making better beer if only...

I had to go check out HBT after reading this thread.  There are people over there who know the absolute best way of doing everything. 

But seriously, the dude talking about pure O2 making a night and day difference in his beer is a pompous goof.  I have changed many processes over the years, and none made a night and day difference. 

I've had incremental improvement over a long period of time, so perhaps if you benchmarked my beer made more than 15 years ago with no thought to fermentation temp, no aeration (other than splashing), and no starter against the beer I'm making today you would get night/day differences.  But that didn't happen over night or from one simple process change.

Agreed on all counts. I've brewed long enough to test out a lot of 'conventional wisdom', from secondaries to pitching alleged exact cell counts to using obligatory O2 on every beer. As a wise brewer says here, I seek out new brewing info constantly but it's only relevant when it doesn't clash with my own repeated experiences. It's why every brewer needs to test things out for themselves.
Jon H.

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2015, 04:07:50 pm »
Bigfoot is open fermented.

Speaking of Bigfoot, I need to get better at being able to squirrel away that beer.

Offline Stevie

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2015, 04:11:32 pm »

Bigfoot is open fermented.

Speaking of Bigfoot, I need to get better at being able to squirrel away that beer.
It's tough. I find putting it in a case at the bottom and back of the pile works best.

Offline macbrews

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2015, 04:12:40 pm »

All allowing a starter to ferment past high krausen does is waste ergosterol and UFA reserves because the mother cells that were in suspension while O2 was still in solution share the ergosterol and UFA reserves that they built with their daughter cells.   High krausen occurs as the culture reaches maximum cell density.  All replication beyond this point is for replacement only, which means that we are wasting ergosterol and UFAs when we allow a starter to ferment out.

So if I were to cold crash a starter at high Krausen would that be a reasonable option for those of us that get into scheduling problems as and have to make a starter several days in advance?

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2015, 04:25:48 pm »

Bigfoot is open fermented.

Speaking of Bigfoot, I need to get better at being able to squirrel away that beer.
It's tough. I find putting it in a case at the bottom and back of the pile works best.

+1.  Great beer to drink young, aged a little, aged a lot, etc. I love how it slowly changes from American BW to more English as time goes by. I have some squirreled away but I don't want too look to closely for it yet.  ;)

Edit for grammar. OCD like that. Or CDO.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 04:38:21 pm by HoosierBrew »
Jon H.

Derek

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2015, 04:27:46 pm »
You guys are the best.

Joe Sr. : I'm glad you read the post and saw what I was talking about.

This is a great forum and Ill be steering clear of HBT for the foreseeable future.

Let me find the thread about Belgian beers where I schooled a guy and I'll post it. That one was even better.

Derek

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2015, 04:30:05 pm »
To which of course I was told that I basically had no frame of reference and that I needed to read all the science behind it and read "Yeast" and if all the breweries in the world are doing it why was I ignorant of the fact that better beer can't be made without Pure O2......

Next time one of those one-year-wonder brewers goes off on a tangent about how one cannot brew good beer without using pure O2, ask him (it will be a him because women do not suffer from too much testosterone syndrome) what O2 is used for in a fermentation and if there is anything that a brewer can do to limit the O2 load in a fermentation.  You can then sit back with a bag of popcorn as he scrambles to come up with a coherent answer. 

Yeast use O2 to synthesize ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acids (UFA).  They do so by shunting O2 and a small amount of carbon (sugar is carbon bound to water) to the respirative (aerobic) metabolic pathway (all reproduction in wort is fermentative due to the fact that brewing yeast strains are Crabtree positive).  Ergosterol and UFAs make the plasma cell membrane more pliable, which, in turn, allows nutrients to enter and waste products to exit the cell.

One of the reasons why aeration is such a hot topic today is because more and more home brewers are pitching quiescent yeast cells (thanks in large part to disinformation being spread on HBT).  Twenty years ago, the average home brewer who made a starter knowingly or unknowingly pitched at high krausen.   The drill was to smack a pack of Wyeast (White Labs was a non-entity for the most part) the morning before brew day, allow it to swell during the day, make starter in the evening, and pitch the starter the next day.  Today, people are making starters days in advance and allowing them to ferment to completion, so that they can decant the supernatant.  By doing so, they are increasing the initial O2 load placed on the wort when the culture is pitched. 

All allowing a starter to ferment past high krausen does is waste ergosterol and UFA reserves because the mother cells that were in suspension while O2 was still in solution share the ergosterol and UFA reserves that they built with their daughter cells.   High krausen occurs as the culture reaches maximum cell density.  All replication beyond this point is for replacement only, which means that we are wasting ergosterol and UFAs when we allow a starter to ferment out.

High gravity and high alcohol beers share one thing in common; namely, the environment is hard on yeast cells, which means that cell membrane health is even more critical in high gravity/high alcohol environments. What makes cell membranes healthy? Ergosterol and UFAs make cell membranes healthy.  The reason why high gravity and high alcohol solutions are hard on yeast cells is because both environments draw water out of the cells.  In the case of high gravity wort, a phenomenon known as osmotic pressure is responsible for drawing water out of the cells.  Osmotic pressure is the result of the solute levels being different on opposite sides of a semi-permeable membrane.  Water is drawn to the side with the higher solute content (the hypertonic side), which is the wort.  In the case of high alcohol, alcohol is hygroscopic.  Anyone who has added "dry gas" to his/her gasoline tank in the winter to deal with condensation in the fuel supply has witnessed alcohol's ability to attract and hold water molecules.

In both cases, the lost of water inside of the cells results in the loss of something known as turgor pressure.  Turgor pressure is the pressure inside of a cell that pushes the plasma membrane up against the cell wall.  Loss of turgor pressure causes wrinkles in the membrane.  It also causes the cells to shrink.  Some of the cells cannot handle the pressure difference and implode.  Those that survive are not able pass nutrients and waste products as freely as they would be able to do in a less hypertonic solution. 

With that said, how do we reduce O2 demands when pitching?  We do so by pitching a high krausen.  In the case high gravity wort, we pitch a larger number of cells at high krausen in order to account for the fact that many cells may not be able to handle the osmotic pressure.

Finally, why do commercial breweries use pure O2?  Well, most commercial breweries repitch bottom-cropped yeast.  Bottom-cropped yeast is taken after the cells have reached quiescence; therefore, they have low ergosterol and UFA reserves.  Another reason why commercial breweries use pure O2 more than likely has to do with efficiency.  Injecting pure O2 is definitely more efficient than pumping air into wort.  Time is money and so is energy.

Quote
You know the drill. Basically the OP had asked for some advice and about 10 really nice and helpful comments were left and invariably someone had to say, "... If you don't do it this way your beer will suck..." Which is something that seems unnecessary to me.

Friends don't let friends read or post on HBT.   :)

Thanks for this. What. Great write up.

Offline brulosopher

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2015, 04:37:52 pm »

I have never, in over 500 batches, used pure O2. I'm not convinced it's at all necessary on the homebrew scale, even for big beers. My hunch is that confirmation bias contributes to much of the belief pure O2 improved one's beer. Again, just a hunch.

As is true of so much in homebrewing.
Uh huh...

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2015, 04:39:00 pm »

I have never, in over 500 batches, used pure O2. I'm not convinced it's at all necessary on the homebrew scale, even for big beers. My hunch is that confirmation bias contributes to much of the belief pure O2 improved one's beer. Again, just a hunch.

As is true of so much in homebrewing.
Uh huh...

Yep
Jon H.

S. cerevisiae

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Re: Anybody Brewing Great Beer with Manual Aeration?
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2015, 04:59:47 pm »
So if I were to cold crash a starter at high Krausen would that be a reasonable option for those of us that get into scheduling problems as and have to make a starter several days in advance?

Placing a culture in a refrigerator set to between 36F and 40F will definitely slow its metabolism.