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Author Topic: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday  (Read 16421 times)

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2015, 05:24:37 pm »
7.3 ml lactic 88% to drop my recipe from 5.5 to 5.0
1.75ml per pound grain bill

I dont know the temp question answer. But I dont just blast the flame, its a slight increase in flame and it takes about 5 to 10 minutes for it to raise 10deg to the next step.

Really enjoyed reading through this Jim.  Couple questions: any idea how hot the recirculating wort was getting during the steps?  I doubt it matters, but I'm curious because I have a RIMS Rocket and am considering using it for this.  Also, do you recall how much acid it took to drop your pH to 5.0 in the kettle pre boil?  Lactic or phosphoric?  Did you check pH post boil?  I'm guessing it would have dropped further. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Post boil was the same. 5.0

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2015, 06:12:02 am »
The beers are at the judges, wont be too long now till I post their perceptions.

Side note, on 12/15 I brewed another Helles Exportbier and a hoppy amber 1.060. I checked this morning (3 days 12 hours in) and they are both at 50% ADF. Its official, I like this 1L high krausen pitching! I just set the controller for 68F ambient, and I'll reinstall tge thermal probe for 68F actual in three days. On track for another pair of 14 day grain to glass lagers.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2015, 12:35:47 pm »
If your name is Steve Antoch or James Golovich dont read this post...

The results from Randy Scorby are in. Randy is a BJCP Grand Master II and he is the BJCP Director of Education. I can say from personal experience that he is also a great guy to just have a beer with.

Munich Helles, 4A

Aroma: A quite prominent grainy, graham cracker like malt aroma up front.  As it fades a light floral hop aroma emerges. The malt character continues to build as it warms and vents; and develops a light richness.  A suggestion of diacetyl also develops but is not overly distracting.  Otherwise clean fermentation, no esters or sulfur were noted.  No DMS.  (10/12)   

Appearance: Light gold color with just a very light haziness to the clarity. The white head slowly dissipates and leaves a thin stand of fine bubbles on the beer.  Good head retention. (2/3)   

Flavor: Flavor follows aroma with a fairly prominent, rich grainy maltiness and very light diacetyl.  A very light floral hop flavor emerges mid-palate along with a moderate hop bitterness.  The hop bitterness lingers through the finish into the aftertaste and turns slightly biting and harsh.  A touch of clean, sharp lactic sourness develops in the finish.  A very light, pleasant residual sweetness emerges in the middle but dries out nicely to create a dry finish.   The balance is to the malt character.  (11/20)   

Mouthfeel: Medium light body with moderate carbonation.  No creaminess, astringency or alcohol is noted.  Very smooth mouthfeel.  Body is just a touch too light. (4/5)   

Overall Impression: Overall, a very good example of style, finding the correct marriage of malt and hop character can be quite difficult in these softer lager styles.   The malt flavor and aroma characteristics were spot on and the floral hop character was also appropriate for style.  The body was just a touch light and needs to be increased to medium. The hop bitterness turns a bit harsh in the finish, and the diacetyl, although just perceptible, diminished the overall enjoyment along with the lactic sourness.  Still, an enjoyable warm weather quencher.  (6/10)   

Total:  33/50

German Helles Exportbier, 5C  

Aroma: A moderate but prominent grainy, slightly bready malt aroma initially, followed by a very light floral hop character. Clean fermentation, no sulfur or diacetyl. No DMS.  A clean lager that showcases the malt character.  (10/12)  

Appearance: Medium gold color, with a very slightly hazy appearance.  The white head leaves a thick stand of fine bubbles on the beer. Good head retention.  (2/3)

Flavor: The moderate grainy malt sweetness is followed quickly by a light floral hop flavor, with the malt developing a light, pleasant breadiness as it warms. Moderate hop bitterness develops mid-palate, and grows as it lingers through the finish into the aftertaste.  The bitterness falls short of harsh but is just a bit robust for style. The finish is lightly sweet although the hop bitterness lends some additional dryness. The balance is fairly even between the malt character and hop bitterness, but the bitterness wins the race.  Clean lager fermentation profile. (14/20)  

Mouthfeel: Medium body with moderate carbonation.  No creaminess, astringency or alcohol noted.  Fairly smooth mouthfeel but lacks the expected crispness.  (4/5)  

Overall Impression: A very well made German Helles Exportbier.  The malt character is well expressed and appropriate in character.  The hop aroma and flavor are also appropriate in characteristics but would benefit from slightly higher levels to help provide more balance to the malt.  The hop bitterness needs to be reduced; it was not harsh but it was just a touch high and tipped the balance.  The finish lacked the expected crispness but not by much.  A few minor tweaks would turn this into an excellent example of style. (7/10)  

Total: 37/50



My takeaways from Randy's feedback, regarding the PROCESS PART are:
1. A protein rest might negatively effect a lower gravity beer more than a higher gravity beer.
2. The less there is to hide behind, the more that big charge of lactic pre-boil acidifying will show up.
3. My detection of diacetyl is not as good as I thought it was, so I'll be giving my light beers an extra couple days at the final 68F step, before crashing

All the remaining critiques appear to be recipe/style related. I'll be addressing those too, as that was a side benefit for me doing this test.

Thanks Randy!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 02:38:46 pm by klickitat jim »

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2015, 12:57:56 pm »
If you are hellbent on dropping the pH via acid pre-boil after the mash, then you may want to consider phosphoric acid. It can contribute less in the way of flavor and can help you achieve your pH drop without the noticeable effects from lactic acid.  You must have had to add quite a bit of lactic acid especially if Randy was able to pick up the flavor contribution from it. 
Not sure if I am sold on this method, but what the hell do I know?  I have yet to try it out for myself and am going on your experiences only.  Thanks for all the updates Jim.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2015, 01:41:14 pm »
If you are hellbent on dropping the pH via acid pre-boil after the mash, then you may want to consider phosphoric acid. It can contribute less in the way of flavor and can help you achieve your pH drop without the noticeable effects from lactic acid.  You must have had to add quite a bit of lactic acid especially if Randy was able to pick up the flavor contribution from it. 
Not sure if I am sold on this method, but what the hell do I know?  I have yet to try it out for myself and am going on your experiences only.  Thanks for all the updates Jim.
Actually, after brewing a nearly identical followup Helles Export with the changes being 3% carapils, single infusion instead of step, and no preboil acid... I'm not seeing enough benefit to the preboil acid. Also I will be dropping the protein rest. Im switching my mash acid to phosphoric 10% but leaving the sparge acid as lactic. This should remove any chance of flavor contribution from acid. Also altering the recipes to include 3% carahell, and adjusting my hopping as needed. They will get an extra couple days at 68º to limit possibilities of diacety. I will address final ph in the keg by taste.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2015, 01:49:59 pm »
If you are hellbent on dropping the pH via acid pre-boil after the mash, then you may want to consider phosphoric acid. It can contribute less in the way of flavor and can help you achieve your pH drop without the noticeable effects from lactic acid.  You must have had to add quite a bit of lactic acid especially if Randy was able to pick up the flavor contribution from it. 
Not sure if I am sold on this method, but what the hell do I know?  I have yet to try it out for myself and am going on your experiences only.  Thanks for all the updates Jim.
Actually, after brewing a nearly identical followup Helles Export with the changes being 3% carapils, single infusion instead of step, and no preboil acid... I'm not seeing enough benefit to the preboil acid. Also I will be dropping the protein rest. Im switching my mash acid to phosphoric 10% but leaving the sparge acid as lactic. This should remove any chance of flavor contribution from acid. Also altering the recipes to include 3% carahell, and adjusting my hopping as needed. They will get an extra couple days at 68º to limit possibilities of diacety. I will address final ph in the keg by taste.


Jim, out of curiosity, what IBUs did you target there ? Thanks for all the info.
Jon H.

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2015, 02:07:05 pm »
The Rube Goldberg Munich Helles was 18.65 calculated IBU and the Helles Exportbier was 26.3 calculated.

My next rendition will be 16.3 calculated on the MH and 27 on the HE, but those numbers are based on 60min but my 60min will actually be FWH.

Nothing locked in yet because I have two more judges to hear from still.

Offline JT

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2015, 02:27:56 pm »
The Rube Goldberg Munich Helles was 18.65 calculated IBU and the Helles Exportbier was 26.3 calculated.

My next rendition will be 16.3 calculated on the MH and 27 on the HE, but those numbers are based on 60min but my 60min will actually be FWH.

Nothing locked in yet because I have two more judges to hear from still.
Looks like the Munich Helles review was double posted, did Randy send you one for the Exportbier?  Thanks for sharing!

"I collect spores, molds and fungus."


Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2015, 02:39:20 pm »
The Rube Goldberg Munich Helles was 18.65 calculated IBU and the Helles Exportbier was 26.3 calculated.

My next rendition will be 16.3 calculated on the MH and 27 on the HE, but those numbers are based on 60min but my 60min will actually be FWH.

Nothing locked in yet because I have two more judges to hear from still.
Looks like the Munich Helles review was double posted, did Randy send you one for the Exportbier?  Thanks for sharing!

"I collect spores, molds and fungus."
I fixed that, thanks for noticing.

By the way, to make the job a little easier on them, i asked the judges to use the Zymurgy Commercial Calibration format and not to worry too much about process suggestions. I'm pointing that out so no one criticizes these judges for not writing Master level score sheets. This whole thing is about these german techniques, not text book BJCP judging examples.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 04:42:05 pm by klickitat jim »

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2015, 10:40:24 pm »
Results from Steve Antoch. Steve is a BJCP Grand Master II, he's the Assistant Education Director for BJCP, and also just a great guy to have a beer with.

Munich Helles

Bottle inspection: OK - lowish fill but not an issue

Aroma:  8/12
Moderately strong juicy-fruit like esters up front, somewhat dominatign the
aroma.  Very low spicy noble-type hops follow.  Malt aroma is somewhat low and
subdued.  No diacetyl or DMS.  Light alcohol notes as beer warms.  Esters dissipate
as beer sits.

Appearance: 2/3
Bright gold color.  Excellent clarity.  Low white head of mixed size bubbles and foam.
Head fell quickly into a thin ring on top of the glass.  No lacing.

Flavor: 11/20:
Moderately light sweet grainy malt up front followed by a light bubble gum
(juicy-fruit) ester, similar to that in the aroma.  Overall the malt flavor
seems low for the style. Mild hop bitterness balances the malt and esters.
No discernible hop flavor.  No diacetyl or DMS noted.  No alcohol
or other off flavors (besides the esters).

Mouthfeel: 3/5
Very light body is thin for the style. Medium low carbonation is low
for the style.  Overall very clean on the palate, starting towards a light
astringency but not quite there.  No creaminess, no alcohol warming.

Overall impression: 6/10
This is a good beer overall.  It is very refreshing example of a very difficult style.
though there are a couple of issues that prevent it from scoring higher. 
Work to eliminate the light esters noted in the aroma and flavor. Possible remedies
may include but are not limited to: using a lower fermentation
temperature, or pitching an active starter of suitable cell count into an
adequately aerated wort. Also, boost the overall malt presence, which seemed
a bit too low for this style.  Boosting the carbonation a touch will help
to increase overall aromatics, and it will aid in giving a slightly fuller mouthtfeel.
as well as improving head retention and mouthfeel. Nice job overall.

Total 30/50


Helles Exportbier

Bottle inspection: OK

Aroma:  10/12
Clean German lager aroma up front.  Prominent sweet and bready malt emerges.  Medium low spicy noble-type hop aroma.
No diacetyl or DMS. No esters or other off aromas. Very clean.

Appearance: 2/3
Medium golden color.  Excellent clarity.  Low white head of mixed size bubbles and foam.
Head fell quickly into a thin layer.

Flavor: 14/20:
Prominent sweet, grainy malt leads the flavor, followed by a firm but clean hop
bitterness that balances the malt sweetness. Light spicy hop flavor.  Moderate
salty/minerally note is present and welcome.  Finish is well balanced. No diacetyl,
no DMS. Very clean and refreshing.

Mouthfeel: 4/5
medium body, medium carbonation.  Clean and refreshing, with a very
pleasant light slickness on the tongue.  No alcohol warming. 

Overall impression: 8/10
This is an excellent example of the style.  The malt and hops balance each
other very well.  The light mineral note adds a welcome complexity to the
flavor.  A bit more of the distinctive German Lager yeast character
would take this beer over the top.  Overall, well done.

Total: 38/50
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 06:15:37 pm by klickitat jim »

Offline brewinhard

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2015, 01:31:29 pm »
Sounds like the exportbier was a hit!

Offline klickitat jim

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2015, 01:53:55 pm »
Sounds like the exportbier was a hit!
Its my favorite thats no doubt. The Munich Helles has really just turned into a personal challenge more than anything else. I'm giving it one more go around, but I may never brew it again after that. The Helles Ex? I dig that style. Not as dull as the Munich, not as bitter as a Pils. Just right for my tastes. Once I get it to a 42+ im going to lock it in and that will be my go-to pale lager.

Offline HoosierBrew

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2015, 03:14:16 pm »
The Helles Ex? I dig that style. Not as dull as the Munich, not as bitter as a Pils. Just right for my tastes.


Yeah, it's a great style - hits that niche between pils and helles. Love it.
Jon H.

Offline santoch

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2015, 05:36:33 pm »
Oops!

I just noticed that it looks like I got ahead of myself when transcribing the aroma section of the helles from my score sheet into the email.  I'll send Jim the corrected text.  Sorry for the confusion

Steve
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Offline jeffy

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Re: Upcoming Rube Goldberg Brewday
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2015, 05:43:31 pm »
One takeaway is that Randy may have more sensitivity to lactic sour flavor than Steve, or did I get that backwards?
Either way, it is good to know that some tasters may be able to find a flaw that others may not.
Jeff Gladish, Tampa (989.3, 175.1 Apparent Rennarian)
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