Author Topic: asian inpsired rice lager  (Read 2856 times)

Offline goschman

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asian inpsired rice lager
« on: March 01, 2016, 02:12:15 PM »
72.5% german pilsner
22.5% flaked rice
2.5% carafoam/dextrine
2.5% melanoidin

Magnum bittering
Sterling finishing

W34/70

1.051
20 IBUs
5.6% ABV

dose keg with 16 oz sake
1-2 oz green tea in the keg

Any comments primarily on the grain bill?
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Offline goschman

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 02:50:09 PM »
If someone has a reference or recipe along the lines of sapporo or something similar that would be great. I haven't been able to find too much recipe information regarding that style of beer.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 03:43:09 PM »
The grain bill looks to fine, I might not use the malanoidin, but it is not too much.

Why the sake and tea? Brewer's artistic license? I don't remember flavors like that, but I haven't had an Asian lager in more than 15 years.
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Offline goschman

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 03:47:32 PM »
The grain bill looks to fine, I might not use the malanoidin, but it is not too much.

Why the sake and tea? Brewer's artistic license? I don't remember flavors like that, but I haven't had an Asian lager in more than 15 years.

Just my twist on it. Definitely not anything traditional or common. I have brewed two other versions of this beer. The first one was pretty bad. I used fresh ginger for the first time and overdid it. I used sake yeast for the second attempt so I thought I might give adding sake to the keg a shot so I can control the profile more easily. I am just looking for a very mild flavor impact. When dosing samples of my current pale lager with some sake, 16 oz for 5 gallons seemed to be the sweet spot.

Not sure what I will do about the melanoidin. I wanted another specialty malt in there and have used melanoidin with good success in pale lagers. Maybe I will remove it.

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Offline Delo

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 04:34:37 PM »
The sushi guy in our town asked me to make him a sapporo/asian style lager a few months ago and I pushed it off until I forgot about it.  There is definitely not a lot out there. I guess not many homebrewers like flavorless beer? I started coming up with something similar. Not sure what the numbers were but off hand it was

75-80% pils
15-20% rice
3 or 4% Munich

around 20 ibus using Saaz and maybe warrior.

What yeast did you prefer in previous batches? Are you looking to make a premade sake bomb?  I'd like to know how it turns out for you since you will probably brew it way before I do. :)
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Offline goschman

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2016, 04:53:19 PM »
The sushi guy in our town asked me to make him a sapporo/asian style lager a few months ago and I pushed it off until I forgot about it.  There is definitely not a lot out there. I guess not many homebrewers like flavorless beer? I started coming up with something similar. Not sure what the numbers were but off hand it was

75-80% pils
15-20% rice
3 or 4% Munich

around 20 ibus using Saaz and maybe warrior.

What yeast did you prefer in previous batches? Are you looking to make a premade sake bomb?  I'd like to know how it turns out for you since you will probably brew it way before I do. :)

First version was basically a blonde ale with US05, ginger, and green tea. The ginger ruined it.

Second version was WLP705 sake and a very small amount of ginger - very interesting and I liked it because I like sake.

This version will be a lager with W34/70. Basically just a rice adjunct lager. Brewing Saturday it looks like.

Not looking to recreate a sake bomb. I dosed 3 oz samples of my pale lager with 1, 2, and 3 mL of sake. I have decided to go with the 2 mL amount which I think will be just detectable enough. If my math is correct it should bump abv by about 0.2%. Sake bomb levels would be at least 7.5 mL to 3 oz I think. 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 04:57:02 PM by goschman »
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2016, 05:02:39 PM »
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.
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Offline goschman

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2016, 05:04:19 PM »
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.

That's a good idea. I don't know much at all about rice varieties so I will have to look into it.
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Offline Delo

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2016, 05:56:28 PM »
I am a big fan of sake too and I like ginger but it can quickly overpower everything.  Adding a small amount sounds good.  I like the idea of using other rices.  I would imagine basmati might be nice in another adjunct beer.  My wife and I hang out with this guy and I give him my homebrew and he gives us sake his mom makes.   One of the times we tried a red rice sake she made and it was pretty awesome. Also not sure if you know, but some sake rice needs to be polished to avoid off flavors when making sake.  Not sure how it would affect beer.  If you brew Saturday, please update.  And I realized I should have put flavorless in quotes.  I do not come across well in text.  Which is part of why I don’t post often.
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Offline goschman

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2016, 06:00:31 PM »
I am a big fan of sake too and I like ginger but it can quickly overpower everything.  Adding a small amount sounds good.  I like the idea of using other rices.  I would imagine basmati might be nice in another adjunct beer.  My wife and I hang out with this guy and I give him my homebrew and he gives us sake his mom makes.   One of the times we tried a red rice sake she made and it was pretty awesome. Also not sure if you know, but some sake rice needs to be polished to avoid off flavors when making sake.  Not sure how it would affect beer.  If you brew Saturday, please update.  And I realized I should have put flavorless in quotes.  I do not come across well in text.  Which is part of why I don’t post often.

I will do my best to update. I was considering jasmine rice but brief research shows that no flavor appears to carry over to the beer. Outside of what the supermarket carries, I don't think I will have time to track down anything 'exotic' so I may just stick with the original plan.
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Offline erockrph

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2016, 06:02:35 PM »
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.
Alas, Japanese sake makers are more protective of their rice than German brewers are with their brewing secrets. I'm pretty sure that unless you're actually making sake commercially in Japan, that you're going to have a hard time getting your hands on their rice. Plus, the polishing process that is used to mill down the rice grains is not something that we have access to.

All that said, sushi rice will probably get you the closest.
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Offline goschman

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2016, 06:05:58 PM »
I think it's an interesting idea although I would consider buying some of the interesting sake rice varieties rather than using regular flaked rice or dosing sake on the backend.
Alas, Japanese sake makers are more protective of their rice than German brewers are with their brewing secrets. I'm pretty sure that unless you're actually making sake commercially in Japan, that you're going to have a hard time getting your hands on their rice. Plus, the polishing process that is used to mill down the rice grains is not something that we have access to.

All that said, sushi rice will probably get you the closest.

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Offline stpug

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2016, 06:09:18 PM »
The green tea, to me, sounds like it would translate into "grassy" notes in the final beer; something I am not a fan of. I would, personally, omit the green tea, but each their own.

I've recently killed an american lager that used ~30% basmati white rice and while the aroma/flavor carried all the way through into the wort, it did not come through in the final beer :(.  Additionally, after looking at the sulfur-compound content of various rices it turns out that basmati (and jasmine too; long-grain in general) have a higher level than shorter-grained rices. I did have an excessive sulfur aroma linger in my basmati beer for a little while. I ended up scrubbing it out by bubbling co2 through the liquid out tube on the keg and it worked very well.  I have since rebrewed the american lager with medium-grain calrose/sushi, but it's still fermenting so no feedback on it just yet.

As far as using precooked REAL rice in brewing, I can say that it has HUGE gravity contribution.  I've learned from these two batches that the yield is basically 100% (potential 1.046) to give good estimates to brewing software.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 06:11:23 PM by stpug »

Offline goschman

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2016, 06:27:35 PM »
The green tea, to me, sounds like it would translate into "grassy" notes in the final beer; something I am not a fan of. I would, personally, omit the green tea, but each their own.

I've recently killed an american lager that used ~30% basmati white rice and while the aroma/flavor carried all the way through into the wort, it did not come through in the final beer :(.  Additionally, after looking at the sulfur-compound content of various rices it turns out that basmati (and jasmine too; long-grain in general) have a higher level than shorter-grained rices. I did have an excessive sulfur aroma linger in my basmati beer for a little while. I ended up scrubbing it out by bubbling co2 through the liquid out tube on the keg and it worked very well.  I have since rebrewed the american lager with medium-grain calrose/sushi, but it's still fermenting so no feedback on it just yet.

As far as using precooked REAL rice in brewing, I can say that it has HUGE gravity contribution.  I've learned from these two batches that the yield is basically 100% (potential 1.046) to give good estimates to brewing software.

The information regarding yield is very helpful and something I had not fully considered. Thank you. I am still on the fence about the green tea...
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Offline stpug

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Re: asian inpsired rice lager
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2016, 07:30:25 PM »
The information regarding yield is very helpful and something I had not fully considered. Thank you.

It took twice, but I've definitely learned how much contribution of sugars you can get from real rice; and it can be pretty cheap depending on rice variety and where you bought it. I've used flaked rice from the LHBS and instant rice from the grocery store a few times.  They are both relatively expensive and don't have near the gravity contribution that regular white rice does.  The process I use for precooking the rice is pretty simple:
  • Cook rice according to package instructions PLUS 1 cup of water per cup rice (~2.75 cups water to 1 cup white rice); I use pretreated strike water
  • After rice cooking time is up, remove from heat and let sit 10 minutes covered.
  • ---During this 10 minutes is when I get my grain mashed-in to about 3 degrees colder than desired (it's a pretty thick mash initially ~1:1 ratio, but loosens up a bit after adding the rice)
  • Using a hand mixer, mix the rice up well to break it down into smaller pieces (this is where the extra water helps a lot - keep me from making glue)
  • Add your mushed up rice to your main mash and ensuring good stirring
  • Adjust mash temp as needed; usually it's down using cold water, ice cubes, frozen water bottle, etc
  • Even though the mash may still seem thick after mixing in the rice, after 30-60 minutes of mashing it really loosens up a lot.
I do about the same with yellow polenta. Precook on the stove using excess water for 5 minute; let sit 10; add to mash. It works very well. Corn does not have the high potential/gravity contribution that rice does from my experience (it's a typical 1.036ish contribution).

I have found that cereal mashes don't make much, or any, difference in the brewing process and require more time and energy to accomplish. At least this has been my experiences with these ingredients.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 07:32:25 PM by stpug »