[ethinson]

Paranoia
The Destroyer

....if you are buying pre-made kits to clone a beer you like, do you really care what the grain bill is?

If I'm buying a kit and cloning I guess I don't care what the grain bill is, but what I do like is the openness and sharing of information that is lacking with this kind of stuff.

And this seems weird, beer is a food product right? Don't they kinda have to tell us what the ingredients are?

From a food labeling standpoint the only thing they have to tell you is its "Barley".  The types/colors/brands etc don't matter.  Same as different brands/cultivars of hops don't matter.  The ingredient statement would be as simple as "Barley, Hops, Yeast".  Ingredient labeling and nutrition facts aren't required for beer at the moment anyway, but it will be soon.  FDA is working on that.

[chumley]

As has been pointed out in this thread, there are many brewers and homebrew stores who don't like to give out their recipes.  It seems like NB is getting singled out because of the anti-corporate backlash that is somewhat pervasive here. Statements like "I'll never buy from them again now that they're owned by Inbev!" appears to be a little self-righteous to me, kind of like Gerald Broflovski smelling his farts because he owns a Prius.

[ynotbrusum]

I appreciate the NB marketing philosophy and its target demographics (which are not me - and that is fine).  My largest concern are the limitations that it is able to bring upon the market.  Specifically, that it is using market strength (real or perceived based on its ownership?) to limit availabilities of products that would otherwise be available through my LHBS.  Namely, "locking up" certain distribution lines making certain items unavailable to homebrewers through their LHBS.  I first experienced it with Omega Labs yeast varieties.  I cannot get all of Omega's yeasts through my LHBS, because NB has an exclusive on certain yeasts that appear to be available to pro brewers through Omega, but are only available to homebrewers through NB.

I like my yeast to travel the least amount and as someone who prefers to buy from my LHBS for local support reasons, I see the limitations as a bit overreaching.  (For what it is worth, Omega is located just a few miles from my LHBS, so its yeast deliveries to the LHBS are very fresh).  Will this happen with other products?  When the buyout was first mentioned on this forum, most folks thought it is not likely.  I am not so sure, but I probably won't be searching out NB for my homebrewing products that are not available through my LHBS (I'll just go to other sources or do without).  Just my 2 cents...

[Joe Sr.]

Exclusive access to fermenters, yeast, etc. really doesn't bother me at all.

There are so many different varieties of everything available that I think it's moot.

As far as the LHBS, there is and always will be more variety available on-line.  If NB has what I think I need, I'll order from them.

It's a shame they (and others?) have moved away from providing the recipe with the kit, but I understand it.  I was always pleasantly surprised that I could DL the recipe and not buy the kit.

[narvin]

Paranoia
The Destroyer

....if you are buying pre-made kits to clone a beer you like, do you really care what the grain bill is?

I think it's a bad way to teach people to brew, and I'm going to say that loudly.  Feel free to ignore.

[denny]

Yea, lets just say I won't be doing that, but.. Cool.

I have never refused to share any recipe or process detail with anyone.  My brewing is an open book.  The brewery I work for encourages homebrewers to take pictures of the recipes hanging from the fermenters when there's a tour.

[ynotbrusum]

Exclusive access to fermenters, yeast, etc. really doesn't bother me at all.

There are so many different varieties of everything available that I think it's moot.

As far as the LHBS, there is and always will be more variety available on-line.  If NB has what I think I need, I'll order from them.

 



Simply put, it irks me that I can get Omega strain x, but not y from my LHBS due to NB's agreement.  The fact that y is available only through NB means I can't order it as fresh as my LHBS provides x.  It seems irksome to me that instead of the weekly delivery from Omega to my LHBS, if I want an Omega Strain that is covered by NB, I have to get it from Chicago by way of Minnesota (with the attendant issues of delivery time and yeast viability impacted. 

If I have a particular favorite maltster and brand (say Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils), I would be upset if Weyermann sold to homebrewers only through one online homebrew outlet and I had to pay extra for the shipping to get it.  Maybe it won't come to that, but, then again, I didn't expect a yeast monopoly to be imposed, either, though I feared to some degree the unknown and this is what we have.  I don't mind that NB isn't releasing the recipes for its kits, but that is because I find many recipes from reliable sources as a starting point for most styles of beers that I brew.   

Equipment, as you say, is ubiquitous and ordering it online is not going to put my LHBS out of business (they sell equipment almost as an after thought and as an accommodation to new customers - they are homebrewing and wine ingredients and ancillary supplies mainly).

[narcout]

I just checked 5 other recipe kits at NB, and they all listed the ingredients just as they always have.

I think the Goose Island kit is an exception, though I know of at least one other.

[BrewBama]

Paranoia
The Destroyer

....if you are buying pre-made kits to clone a beer you like, do you really care what the grain bill is?

Good point

I absolutely would! If you find a beer you like, and you want to uderstand what the ingredients are to make your beer taste like that, you need to understand the ingredients.

I'll be honest, never cared about the AB buying NB thing until now. I stopped buying from Williams Brewing because they wouldn't share the ingredients to their recipes years ago. It's the principle of the thing.

I don't know the answer to this, but do you share your recipes for yellowhammer to the public? I know I have recipes that I refuse to share, so I guess it doesn't bother me.

Look in the back of Denny's book "Experimental Homebrewing" for your answer.... but, I'm also not in the business of selling kits to homebrewers. If you personally asked me for a recipe I would give you the recipe. Not every single detail, mind you. But certainly the grain bill.

Again, I believe it's the techniques and processes that are usually the defining difference. 

What I find interesting is one 'clone' recipe is dramatically different than another 'clone' recipe to supposedly result in the same beer.


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[davidw]

Simply put, it irks me that I can get Omega strain x, but not y from my LHBS due to NB's agreement.

Just out of curiosity: you are "irked" at NB for having the ability to distribute certain strains of Omega yeast, but you are *not* so upset with Omega since you are still buying their yeast? It rather seems like Omega "sold out" to insure a broad distribution channel, which is what NB is accused of doing, (selling out), correct?

[ynotbrusum]

I talked with one of the Omega Labs owners at a presentation to our club and as a startup, it is hard to take issue with Omega essentially taking "an offer you can't refuse", to be able to bring greater financial stability to its business and assure a quicker larger outlet for its product...though, yes, I am not happy that it did so, but I take issue with the bully not the bullied.  I don't have a problem with NB selling out, just that I feared that the market forces of A-B might be so great that it would result in adverse results for the homebrewers and the LHBS.

Take it to the extreme and it might be malts or hops that are next "cornered".  Likely not, but some unexpected adverse result could be felt to the hobby.  But, if you think it has brought a better situation to the fore, then good for you.  I tend to be "concerned" about the big guys controlling things in my life - but this one isn't causing me to lose sleep over it, just to be a bit saddened.

[HoosierBrew]

I talked with one of the Omega Labs owners at a presentation to our club and as a startup, it is hard to take issue with Omega essentially taking "an offer you can't refuse", to be able to bring greater financial stability to its business and assure a quicker larger outlet for its product...though, yes, I am not happy that it did so, but I take issue with the bully not the bullied.  I don't have a problem with NB selling out, just that I feared that the market forces of A-B might be so great that it would result in adverse results for the homebrewers and the LHBS.

Take it to the extreme and it might be malts or hops that are next "cornered".  Likely not, but some unexpected adverse result could be felt to the hobby.  But, if you think it has brought a better situation to the fore, then good for you.  I tend to be "concerned" about the big guys controlling things in my life - but this one isn't causing me to lose sleep over it, just to be a bit saddened.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. In and of itself, not releasing kit recipes (though pretty common place) doesn't signal the apocalypse. But you don't need to wear a tin foil hat to believe that there's possibly/likely a long term plan to slowly monopolize ingredients and supply chains through exclusivity. Hope I'm wrong. But I'm probably not.

[bayareabrewer]

its troubling to me that a company could cut a check for what amounts to them to be .000000001 percent of their budget or something like that and make every independent yeast producer in America an offer they couldn't refuse so that the could offer "exclusive" strains through NB. I'm not comfortable with a bully like that in the industry.

[narvin]

As has been pointed out in this thread, there are many brewers and homebrew stores who don't like to give out their recipes.  It seems like NB is getting singled out because of the anti-corporate backlash that is somewhat pervasive here. Statements like "I'll never buy from them again now that they're owned by Inbev!" appears to be a little self-righteous to me, kind of like Gerald Broflovski smelling his farts because he owns a Prius.

Brewers maybe, but homebrew stores?  None that I've visited.

[narvin]

Do pro brewers have some sort of responsibility to provide their customers with detailed recipes that will allow us to copy their commercial products? While I do deeply appreciate those pros who do share (I just brewed a Black Butte clone from a recipe that Deschutes shared in "Brew Your Own"), I consider that a generous gift by the brewer rather than my "right" as a consumer. I don't expect my favorite Italian restaurant to provide me with a detailed recipe for their famous red sauce...

No, they have no responsibility, but you're not buying a bag of secret ingredients from your favorite Italian restaurant to make at home. What they're selling here is branding, since I doubt you're even getting the same stuff that Goose Island uses.  That's fine for consumers who want that, but too many people are unaware of how marketing works.