Author Topic: Brewtan Experiment Writeup  (Read 3491 times)

Offline denny

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Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline bjanat

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2017, 03:57:34 PM »
Teaspoons? What's wrong with grams?

Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2017, 03:59:37 PM »
Teaspoons? What's wrong with grams?

Nothing, just as there's nothing wrong with teaspoons.  The multi award winning brewer who heads up the Brewtan division at Ajinomoto uses teaspoons.  That's good enough for me.
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Offline bjanat

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2017, 04:02:31 PM »
And what were the DO levels like?

Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2017, 04:25:13 PM »
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care and that's not what we were testing.  We cared about the beer.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline bayareabrewer

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2017, 04:25:32 PM »
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care.  We cared about the beer.

what a concept!

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2017, 04:31:52 PM »
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care and that's not what we were testing.  We cared about the beer.

Interesting write up. The participants seemed pleased with the beers.

One word of caution though: calling BTB an oxygen scavenger is going to invite comments to the contrary.

Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2017, 04:33:26 PM »
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care and that's not what we were testing.  We cared about the beer.

Interesting write up. The participants seemed pleased with the beers.

One word of caution though: calling BTB an oxygen scavenger is going to invite comments to the contrary.

Yeah, I realize that.  Drew wrote the headline.  Let people comment to the contrary, I really don't care.

BTW, Derek, how would you characterize it if not an oxygen scavenger?  An oxygen neutralizer?  I'd appreciate your thoughts.
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Big Monk

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Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2017, 04:37:50 PM »
And what were the DO levels like?

No idea.  We didn't care and that's not what we were testing.  We cared about the beer.

Interesting write up. The participants seemed pleased with the beers.

One word of caution though: calling BTB an oxygen scavenger is going to invite comments to the contrary.

Yeah, I realize that.  Drew wrote the headline.  Let people comment to the contrary, I really don't care.

BTW, Derek, how would you characterize it if not an oxygen scavenger?  An oxygen neutralizer?  I'd appreciate your thoughts.

From my understanding, the main point of protection you get from BTB is the prevention of downstream staling reactions and the chelating of metals.

So it is extremely useful for just those reasons. Many people have been combining it with Metabisulfite and even AA with great results. They all having differing mechanisms that are complementary. Some companies offer pre-packaged mixtures of the 3. Antitoxin SBT in particular uses KMeta/AA/Gallotannins.

Long story short, BTB isn't an Oxygen scavenger or a neutralizer, although that doesn't diminish its usefulness one bit.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 04:39:43 PM by Big Monk »

Online Phil_M

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 05:17:35 PM »
So, it's the opposite of a catalyst, impeding rather than increasing the reaction rate.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

MaltMaker

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2017, 06:28:19 PM »
BrewTan B is *not* an "oxygen scavenging chemical".  It may reduce protein (enzymatic) and metal ion based oxidative effects but not those caused by free oxygen in solution.

BrewTan B (BTB) *is* a tannic acid containing gallotannins.  These gallotannins bind with certain proteins, specifically those from the proline and thiol groups - that participate in certain enzymatic oxidative reactions and reactions with heavy metals, and drop those proteins and metal ions out of solution.  Chelating is the term used for bonding with metal ions.

Sulfites and Sulfides - including Sodium Metabisulfite (SMB), Sodium Sulfite, Sulfur Trioxide and Sulfur Dioxide *are* oxygen scavengers.  They react with free oxygen in solution to produce various byproducts such as Sulfur Dioxide, various sulfates and sodium salts.

Ascorbic Acid (AA) *is* an oxygen scavenger but has the side effect of producing oxidative products (ions which cause further oxidation such as hydrogen peroxide) when it reacts with the free O2 in solution.  It thus requires those oxidative products be reacted with some third party such as Sulfur Dioxide.

Hence you have the so-called "Trifecta" mixture of SMB/AA/BTB which happens to be made commercially in a product called "Antioxin SBT".

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ANTIOXINSBT.pdf

Finding ones own ratios of each is the trick.

Basically your experiment tested the reduction or elimination of protein (enzymatic) and metal ion based oxidative reactions *not* the reduction or elimination of oxygen based oxidative reactions.   It would be interesting to conduct three of these tests 1.) Eliminate or reduce the protein (enzymatic) and metal ion based oxidative reactions 2.) Eliminate or reduce the oxygen based oxidative reactions and 3.) Eliminate or reduce both protein (enzymatic) and metal ion - and oxygen based oxidative reactions.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 07:26:09 PM by MaltMaker »

Offline The Beerery

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 06:45:09 PM »
BrewTan B is *not* an "oxygen scavenging chemical".  It may reduce protein based oxidative effects but not those caused by free oxygen in solution.

BrewTan B (BTB) *is* a tannic acid containing gallotannins.  These gallotannins bind with certain proteins, specifically those from the proline and thiol groups - that participate in certain enzymatic oxidative reactions and reactions with heavy metals, and drop those proteins out of solution.

Sulfites and Sulfides - include Sodium Metabisulfite (SMB), Sodium Sulfite, Sulfur Trioxide and Sulfur Dioxide *are* oxygen scavengers.  They react with free oxygen in solution to produce various byproducts such as Sulfur Dioxide, various sulfates and sodium salts.

Ascorbic Acid (AA) *is* an oxygen scavenger but has the side effect of producing oxidative products (ions which cause further oxidation such as hydrogen peroxide) when it reacts with the free O2 in solution.  It thus requires those oxidative products be reacted with some third party such as Sulfur Dioxide.

Hence you have the so-called "Trifecta" mixture of SMB/AA/BTB which happens to be made commercially in a product called "Antioxin SBT".

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ANTIOXINSBT.pdf

Finding ones own ratios of each is the trick.

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Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2017, 07:14:07 PM »
Thank you for your comments.  Ignore the title, read the writeup.
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MaltMaker

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2017, 07:34:34 PM »
Quote
After years of telling people "Oh HSA doesn't matter really", the new hot concern amongst brewers has become any oxygen involved in the brewing process. You'll see references to some fairly complicated brewing methods called LODO (Low Dissolved Oxygen). Supporters of the technique claim some great benefits to the process, but the means to get there is pretty arduous.

But is there a better way through chemistry? Award winning brewer Joe Formanek works for the Japanese firm Anjinomoto that produces, amongst many things, a series of tannic acid products for brewing. The long molecule when dissolved in both the mash and the boil is supposed to improve clarity, yield and reduce oxygen's impact on flavor degradation.

Interesting article but you're not testing anything to do with dissolved oxygen.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 07:36:06 PM by MaltMaker »

Offline denny

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Re: Brewtan Experiment Writeup
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2017, 07:59:54 PM »
Quote
After years of telling people "Oh HSA doesn't matter really", the new hot concern amongst brewers has become any oxygen involved in the brewing process. You'll see references to some fairly complicated brewing methods called LODO (Low Dissolved Oxygen). Supporters of the technique claim some great benefits to the process, but the means to get there is pretty arduous.

But is there a better way through chemistry? Award winning brewer Joe Formanek works for the Japanese firm Anjinomoto that produces, amongst many things, a series of tannic acid products for brewing. The long molecule when dissolved in both the mash and the boil is supposed to improve clarity, yield and reduce oxygen's impact on flavor degradation.

Interesting article but you're not testing anything to do with dissolved oxygen.

Thank you for your comment.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell