[morticaixavier]

Ok, so, what would be the major difference between using a lower mash temp vs not mashing out and getting a more fermentable wort?

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don't know, you would have to do a side by side.

Here's what I THINK might be the difference:
Enzymatic reactions tend to occur faster at higher temps. Higher temps also favor Alpha over Beta amylase viability, however as far as I know, Beta amylase still works faster at higher temps, it's just no longer in the 'sweet spot' for it up around 158. So I suspect that the beta amylase will still do it's work more completely (more fermentable wort) in a given amount of time at the slightly higher mash temp.

Beta amylase works on sugars that Alpha amylase has already taken a turn with so while you may have 100% conversion how much of that is highly fermentable Beta products and how much is less fermentable Alpha products will vary given how long the Beta amylase has to work on the already 100% converted (as far as the alpha amylase is concerned anyway) wort.

Now, a proper mashout will fairly quickly stop all or most enzymatic action dead so no new conversion from Alpha products to Beta products will occur.

It seems possible to me that if you skip the mashout and fly sparge for say 45 minutes to an hour your are getting significantly more Beta products.

That's my guess anyway.

And if you are trying to clone SN Celebration and they don't do a mashout step then I would not do a mashout step.

[HoosierBrew]

When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

[morticaixavier]

When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What's the carbonation level like?

[HoosierBrew]

When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

I was pretty vague in terms of amounts  -  I used 160ppm CaSO4 and 80ppm CaCl2.  I thought it worked pretty well.

[hopfenundmalz]

Denny, with your contacts at SN do they do a mashout of any type? May just be a difference in process.

IIRC, I think they do.  But I doubt that explains things.  I can ask them, but it will be a while since we're into Thanksgiving now.

ETA:  OK, went back and checked info and there is nothing to indicate they do anything other than a single infusion for this beer.  We I was there brewing an alt for Beer Camp, we did a step mash (at their brewer's insistence) but I don't recall if there was a mashout.  Maybe Jeff will have some info from when he was there.

i remember them saying they usually mash at 158F which surprised us. But with their base malt and system it works. Mash out? Can't remember. I do remember the first lauter stuck, and a half bag of rice hulls were used in the second lauter.

[natebriscoe]

When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What's the carbonation level like?

SN says 90 base 10 English c60, which I have used, but I find to be syrupy sweet at those amounts even after adjusting to hit the right fg.

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[hopfenundmalz]

When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What's the carbonation level like?

SN says 90 base 10 English c60, which I have used, but I find to be syrupy sweet at those amounts even after adjusting to hit the right fg.

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their base malt is NA 2Row, Rahr or Great Western. English C60 is the crystal. They probably use a high amount of SO4 to get the finish dry, and they have lots of healthy Chico yeast to use.

[HoosierBrew]

+1 to gypsum.

[natebriscoe]

When I last made a Celebration Ale - type beer I mashed @ 155F (never realizing that SN mashed @ 158F).  What I did then was to add a bit more CaCl2 than I normally would for a West Coast hoppy beer, realizing that Celebration has a pretty full,firm malt base. I wasn't trying to clone it but in terms of body and balance, it was pretty comparable.

this is another aspect to consider, there is more to a full malty mouthfeel/flavor than just residual long chain sugars. How does the water play with the hops? what level of crystal is being used? What's the carbonation level like?

SN says 90 base 10 English c60, which I have used, but I find to be syrupy sweet at those amounts even after adjusting to hit the right fg.

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their base malt is NA 2Row, Rahr or Great Western. English C60 is the crystal. They probably use a high amount of SO4 to get the finish dry, and they have lots of healthy Chico yeast to use.

that what denny and everyone else says on the base malt. And I'm not calling them liars, but I get a very pronounced toasty flavor that I can't get with 2l 2 row and English crystal.

[denny]

that what denny and everyone else says on the base malt. And I'm not calling them liars, but I get a very pronounced toasty flavor that I can't get with 2l 2 row and English crystal.

Dunno what to tell you.  I can guarantee you that the info Jeff and I have passed along is straight form the horse's mouth.  They're very straightforward with their brewing...no tricks.

[natebriscoe]

that what denny and everyone else says on the base malt. And I'm not calling them liars, but I get a very pronounced toasty flavor that I can't get with 2l 2 row and English crystal.

Dunno what to tell you.  I can guarantee you that the info Jeff and I have passed along is straight form the horse's mouth.  They're very straightforward with their brewing...no tricks.

  Sorry Denny, i'm sure its good info. i just can't make it work on my system, i'm sure its just a difference in process and a 200 bbl system has to behave differently than a 10 gallon. Then being that big of a system maybe they don't measure out grain real exact (so many bags of this, so many bags of that) and instead of 10% its 6.5%, would make a big difference at 5 gallon system. But thanks for the info still.   

[denny]

  Sorry Denny, i'm sure its good info. i just can't make it work on my system, i'm sure its just a difference in process and a 200 bbl system has to behave differently than a 10 gallon. Then being that big of a system maybe they don't measure out grain real exact (so many bags of this, so many bags of that) and instead of 10% its 6.5%, would make a big difference at 5 gallon system. But thanks for the info still.
[/quote]

I doubt a brewer as big and high quality as SN would allow measurements that are that far off.  I know that when we brewed on the pilot system everything was carefully weighed.

[hopfenundmalz]

that what denny and everyone else says on the base malt. And I'm not calling them liars, but I get a very pronounced toasty flavor that I can't get with 2l 2 row and English crystal.

Dunno what to tell you.  I can guarantee you that the info Jeff and I have passed along is straight form the horse's mouth.  They're very straightforward with their brewing...no tricks.

  Sorry Denny, i'm sure its good info. i just can't make it work on my system, i'm sure its just a difference in process and a 200 bbl system has to behave differently than a 10 gallon. Then being that big of a system maybe they don't measure out grain real exact (so many bags of this, so many bags of that) and instead of 10% its 6.5%, would make a big difference at 5 gallon system. But thanks for the info still.

I can't say for certain, but I think beers like Celebration are brewed on the 100 barrel copper direct fired system. The 200 bbl is Copper on the outside for looks, SS on the inside, with a calandra to supply the heat. More Maillard reactions on the copper direct faired system.

Edit - to be more exact, listen to the Brewing network interview with Steve Dressler he gives the recipe for Celebration at the end. Now I think he rattled off all of the details for 200 bbls. He specifies malt and hops in his quantities, up to the homebrewer to scale it down.

[natebriscoe]

Dunno what to tell you.  I can guarantee you that the info Jeff and I have passed along is straight form the horse's mouth.  They're very straightforward with their brewing...no tricks.
[/quote]  Sorry Denny, i'm sure its good info. i just can't make it work on my system, i'm sure its just a difference in process and a 200 bbl system has to behave differently than a 10 gallon. Then being that big of a system maybe they don't measure out grain real exact (so many bags of this, so many bags of that) and instead of 10% its 6.5%, would make a big difference at 5 gallon system. But thanks for the info still.
[/quote]

I can't say for certain, but I think beers like Celebration are brewed on the 100 barrel copper direct fired system. The 200 bbl is Copper on the outside for looks, SS on the inside, with a calandra to supply the heat. More Maillard reactions on the copper direct faired system.

Edit - to be more exact, listen to the Brewing network interview with Steve Dressler he gives the recipe for Celebration at the end. Now I think he rattled off all of the details for 200 bbls. He specifies malt and hops in his quantities, up to the homebrewer to scale it down.
[/quote] I have listened to their interview before (a good interview), they just didn't get specific enough for me, like about this amount of grain or grain from this maltster or we mash at 158 but it takes us 2 hours to get it all up to a boil, stuff like that.

[HoosierBrew]

I don't know of many breweries anywhere who would give a lot more detail than we have for this beer (if as much).  We have :        OG
                                 FG
                                 Mash Temp
                                 Hop Schedule
                                 Hop Varieties
                                 Yeast Strain
                                 90% 2 row
                                 10% C60

Clearly with a mash temp that high you would probably need to use some gypsum to dry the finish out a bit. I'm at a loss here.