[beersk]

I think what he meant to say was heat stress rather than oxidation.

Heat stress?  Tell me more!

What Sam said, and Brewing Network had a podcast on it, too. http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-thermal-load/

Basically, boiling long and hard cause stress which compromises beer stability and adds unwanted color to the wort. Coupled with oxidation reactions, beer stability and freshness is greatly compromised. I've been boiling at what looks like a simmer, maybe a tad more than a simmer for 45 minutes. I like it.

[ynotbrusum]

I guess I'll have to try it out - are you going 30 minutes with floor malted Bo Pils malt?  Just scared of DMS with a short boil with that malt and I am working through a sack of it presently....

[Phil_M]

IMO, LODO brewing for "IT" keeps asking more questions than it answers. Consider this: Pilsner Urquell. Decocted, open lauter grants, boiled for 90 minutes...all it's color comes from these processes, which surely include a heavy dose of oxidation. Result? A beer that still has "IT".

I think there is much to LODO brewing, but I still have a lot of questions.

[narvin]

Nothing like the stability of a lambic... turbid mash, hot sparge to extract tannins, copper grant, old oxidized hops, ferment in barrel.  Age for 5 years 😀

[zwiller]

No I haven't gone down that road yet. I feel like that one really needs to be done serially...same recipe/same grist in order to know what changes in conversion efficiency or fermentability I experience, if any.

I get that.  I have been successfully using short mash times for a few years now.  It does take some dialing in and I will say the crush is the critical component.  IE - all the quoted conversion times on malt spec sheets are lab conditions where malt is turned to flour basically, so the theory is the more exposed the starch is the faster it converts.  I started getting success at .020" and later opened up back to .030" in an effort to speed lauter.  For some reason, I cannot use 1/2" throughput or I get stuck even if I open the crush up to .040"...  If I stick to 3/8" I am fine not matter what the crush.  BTW I hit near 80% with single batch sparge so I've not had to adjust recipes at all to shorten it up.  As usual YMMV 

[zwiller]

I guess I'll have to try it out - are you going 30 minutes with floor malted Bo Pils malt?  Just scared of DMS with a short boil with that malt and I am working through a sack of it presently....

I just use Briess 2 row.  I don't blame you one bit being afraid using that malt.  You'd be the guinea pig on that one.  That is probably a worst case scenario.  If it works, then I would say that DMS is basically a myth to homebrewers.  One factor that everyone seems to forget is boil off rates.  Even with a short boil I am going beyond the typical pro brewer.  With 60m I got 15% so that's 7.5% for 30m.  From what I researched 5% (actually 4% IIRC) was considered good on the pro level.  So, if you plug boil off rate (boil intensity or temp?) into the equation at which DMS precursors are driven off, I'd say a short boil with that old school malt might "just be crazy enough to work". 

[dilluh98]

No I haven't gone down that road yet. I feel like that one really needs to be done serially...same recipe/same grist in order to know what changes in conversion efficiency or fermentability I experience, if any.

I get that.  I have been successfully using short mash times for a few years now.  It does take some dialing in and I will say the crush is the critical component.  IE - all the quoted conversion times on malt spec sheets are lab conditions where malt is turned to flour basically, so the theory is the more exposed the starch is the faster it converts.  I started getting success at .020" and later opened up back to .030" in an effort to speed lauter.  For some reason, I cannot use 1/2" throughput or I get stuck even if I open the crush up to .040"...  If I stick to 3/8" I am fine not matter what the crush.  BTW I hit near 80% with single batch sparge so I've not had to adjust recipes at all to shorten it up.  As usual YMMV 

If you want to crush to flour (which I do), get a BrewBag for your cooler mash tun. Best thing I've done for my brewing in the past year: get my own mill + outfit my cooler with a BrewBag. I crush as tight as my mill will go and I never get stuck sparges as the brew bag is very fine mesh - I still have a short SS braid in there but there's really no point now. Easy cleanup, too.

[zwiller]

Interesting from the clean up aspect alone.  How long to drain/lauter?  For some reason I get vacuum going with the 1/2" setup.  Maybe the bag would fix that.  How long do you normally mash for? 

[dilluh98]

I don't worry about vacuum - in fact I encourage it with 3' of high temp silicon tubing attached to the ball valve outlet draining into the bottom of the boil kettle (mainly to reduce splashing). If I had to guess, draining takes 5-10 min max depending on mash thickness and recipe. I've also stopped vourlaufing as the first running are clear. Crank it open and let it drain. I get 85% mash efficiency with batch sparge consistently and I don't squeeze the bag or wait for every last drop of wort to drain. I mash anywhere from 45 to 90 min.

[dilluh98]

IMO, LODO brewing for "IT" keeps asking more questions than it answers. Consider this: Pilsner Urquell. Decocted, open lauter grants, boiled for 90 minutes...all it's color comes from these processes, which surely include a heavy dose of oxidation. Result? A beer that still has "IT".

I think there is much to LODO brewing, but I still have a lot of questions.

Reminded me of a recent beersmith podcast with Charlie B. encouraging home brewers to boil with high vigor. Advice is all over the place as are the results.

[Phil_M]

Yep. That's why I'm watching with interest, but really not worrying about any of it yet.

I've been focusing on British styles more anyway, oxidation is kinda needed with them IMO. Kinda fun trying the whole cellaring thing too, trying to time the oxidation just right so the beer is "perfect" for a party or get together.

[dilluh98]

Yep. That's why I'm watching with interest, but really not worrying about any of it yet.

I've been focusing on British styles more anyway, oxidation is kinda needed with them IMO. Kinda fun trying the whole cellaring thing too, trying to time the oxidation just right so the beer is "perfect" for a party or get together.

Mostly agree with British styles as I open ferment my bitters and milds and tend to abuse the yeast a bit more than other strains. Except, I made my most recent dark mild with Brewtan B and at one week in the bottle it's better than any mild I've made previously using the same recipe, whether it's aged or not. Still waiting to hear back on someone who's used it on a hoppier style. Regardless, I'm starting to believe that there is something to this stuff for home brewers. The purported stability effects might be more important for bottlers. Hard to say without more data. 

Sorry to derail the thread a bit here...

[zwiller]

I don't worry about vacuum - in fact I encourage it with 3' of high temp silicon tubing attached to the ball valve outlet draining into the bottom of the boil kettle (mainly to reduce splashing). If I had to guess, draining takes 5-10 min max depending on mash thickness and recipe. I've also stopped vourlaufing as the first running are clear. Crank it open and let it drain. I get 85% mash efficiency with batch sparge consistently and I don't squeeze the bag or wait for every last drop of wort to drain. I mash anywhere from 45 to 90 min.

5-10m would rock and that's what I was told would be happen with 1/2" throughput.  I, too have stopped OCD about vorlauf clarity.  Just keep the chunks out.  Hmm.  Maybe the bag does do something...  I am just using a bazooka tube.

[HoosierBrew]

Gonna definitely try a shorter boil at some point soon. Not too scared of DMS at this point, but I'll admit that 30 mins does seem short for pils malt. Of course we all thought that 60 minutes seemed short for a pils boil, too....

[brewinhard]

Gonna definitely try a shorter boil at some point soon. Not too scared of DMS at this point, but I'll admit that 30 mins does seem short for pils malt. Of course we all thought that 60 minutes seemed short for a pils boil, too....

Even in spite of Brulosophy's exbeeriment with a 30 min boil and pilsner malt resulting in no detectable DMS (even by lab analysis, IIRC), I still cannot bring myself to give it a shot.