[BrewnWKopperKat]

Have to say I never expected this.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2024/01/08/brew-files-160-oxygen-the-sometimes-enemy/

When the podcast appeared on my iOS Downcast App it was a delightful surprise.

Drew & Denny: thank you!

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Have to say I never expected this.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2024/01/08/brew-files-160-oxygen-the-sometimes-enemy/

Also, it's 2024 and the perhaps the "lodo" debates belong to a "previous generation" of beer home brewers.

What moves us forward?

What incremental techniques can I apply to my brewing processes to make more enjoyable beer?

[Bilsch]

Actually, my stand hasn't changed.

No? Because I vaguely remember something about 6 myths of home brewing.

Anyway I'm happy we can agree about HSA now. Like Kopperkat said, "what moves us forward".

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Like Kopperkat said, "what moves us forward".

Respectfully, my question was intended for you, not Drew and Denny.

[Bilsch]

Respectfully, my question was intended for you, not Drew and Denny.

There is a wealth of brewing information in technical papers, books and on these types of forums. The trick with the forums and some books is sorting the useful bits from the trash. The best way to do that, in my opinion, should be to learn as much as possible about the science of brewing and eschew the RDWHAHB mindset of mediocrity. It's the only way to truly understand what is happening and make changes that will positively effect the quality of your beer. Toward that end if I had to suggest one sure fire way to improve your brewing technique it would be to get a copy of Technology Brewing and Malting by Wolfgang Kunze. In that book you will find no opinion or false advice. Simply proven brewing science that you can trust. Learning from a such a reliable source will give you the base of knowledge to better sort the nuggets of wisdom from the masses of garbage on this topic you will find everywhere else.

[ynotbrusum]

I don't want to stir the pot, so to speak, but the initial debate kind of fizzled out in this forum in order to keep things more civil, I guess, and I haven't kept up with newest thoughts and practices adopted in this realm of brewing in other fora.  Kunze is a tremendous source, no doubt. 

I wonder if the summary of LODO process can be stated (even if over-simplified) as - HSA can be minimized by using de-aeration of strike water (whether boiled, adding trifecta or parts thereof, or using a YOS process with yeast and sugar or other?), underletting the mash, minimal and gentle mash stirring/doughing-in and wort transfers, then also lowering the boil to a simmer, and quickly chilling to pitch temperature with no O2 added (at least for dry yeast pitching).  I no longer recirc the wort in mash very often, but many measures can be implemented to "tighten up" the process to minimize O2 ingress during recirc. 

If that is all fairly acceptable, I wonder if any discussion has occurred as to what effect the NoLox malts (such as Viking Zero) may have, together with new chemical treatments such as OxBlox (essentially a commercially made Trifecta), or others that we haven't heard much about - are there new conventions being implemented in this area?

Cheers and I enjoyed Drew and Denny's discussion.  I think we can discuss the topic without concern for older, outdated fundamental "truths" being re-imposed (such as HSA being a myth) or not allowing for adoption of some, but not necessarily all methodologies.

[neuse]

When I first started reading about the LODO method, my impression was 1) There are many ways the wort can be exposed to oxygen 2) All of the techniques for HSA elimination must be applied every step of the way, or the "half-measures" will be for nothing. It seems to me that the real change in thinking is that #2 isn't valid - anything done to reduce HSA moves us in the right direction (although with some styles, the "right" direction is really a misnomer). That makes a world of difference.

[hopfenundmalz]

I've been able to travel the last few years. A couple of observations.

Toured the Theakston brewery in Masham Yorkshire UK. The beers were excellent served via hand pulls. The brewery was an old Victorian one. Not much in the way of new technology there, copper was everywhere, including the Copper kettle. Old Peculier was so good fresh. The bottled versions I had many years back were not so great, stale messes. I no longer buy British beer in the US, as often the malt tastes like Carmel and the hop aromas are low or gone. In London last November the pints of Real Ale were delicious.

 Currently in Franconia the Helles tsunami is taking place. Some of these aren't so good, as the brewing systems are old, and the Helles has a fair amount of Herbstofe and lacks the clean malt character of a Augustiner. Some Helles in Franconia is good enough. The kellerbiers or lagerbiers were a better drinking experience.

There were a few 0.5 liters I had that were flawed with diacetyl, but that's a different topic. Just stating that German breweries aren't perfect.

I brew using as much LODO as I can on my brewing system for German styles using mostly Pils malt. I'm happy with the Helles, Pils, and Heller Bock I make. LODO has improved those and extended the shelf life.

As mentioned in the Podcast I don't do as much for British ales.  The higher killed Pale Ale malts are not as sensitive to HSA, so I just use Brewtan-B in the stike water and fill from the bottom. I do keep O2 out on the cold side for those ales.

That's what I do, and it works for me.

[chinaski]

One thing that I liked from the Experimental Brewing podcast episode on the topic was what I perceived as Denny being more open-minded on the topic than I remember most folks being on this forum when the discussion was so heated.  It could be the difference in media/ways of communication that helped, or time, or both.  A level of open-mindedness is good to see and will take this hobby of ours (and so many other things too) forward.

Now I gotta agonize whether the pilsener I brewed right before that podcast episode came out has a touch of HSA.  I already know the answer...

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've been able to travel the last few years. A couple of observations. [...]

Thank you. 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

[...]  NoLox malts (such as Viking Zero) [...]

About a year ago, CB&B had a "side bar" on Great Western's Caramel Steam Malt.  Apparently the idea is to produce a product that has caramel flavors while reducing the oxidation characteristics.

[Bilsch]

I wonder if the summary of LODO process can be stated (even if over-simplified) as - HSA can be minimized by using de-aeration of strike water (whether boiled, adding trifecta or parts thereof, or using a YOS process with yeast and sugar or other?), underletting the mash, minimal and gentle mash stirring/doughing-in and wort transfers, then also lowering the boil to a simmer, and quickly chilling to pitch temperature with no O2 added (at least for dry yeast pitching).  I no longer recirc the wort in mash very often, but many measures can be implemented to "tighten up" the process to minimize O2 ingress during recirc. 

You are pretty much on track there but let me clarify a couple things if I may.

De-aerating strike water is best done by boiling or the yeast method. Using sulfites for that purpose would require using far too much and end up adding a lot of sodium or potassium as well as screwing with your pH. That being said, you do however want to add 20-40 ppm of sulfites to the mash water after de-aeration to scavenge up that oxygen which is introduced with the grain, what comes from air contact with the surface of the liquor and any other incidental ingress points. The amount will be determined empirically and depends primarily on your individual system and essentially how 'leaky' it is. Start high and work your way backward until you find your systems dose.

Regarding oxygenating the chilled wort.
Even when using dry yeast I would suggest aerating at least a small amount as a way to denature any excess sulfites that make it through the boil. Some yeast strains are more intolerant to sulfites then others but typically all yeast liquid or dry will have a shorter lag time if residual sulfites are removed and given some O2. Short lag times are important since this period of inactivity means your wort is unprotected from staling reactions. Most low oxygen adherents use liquid yeast in excellent health in an effort to reduce the lag to an absolute minimum. Generally people are seeing activity within a couple hours after pitching.

[Richard]

... The amount will be determined empirically and depends primarily on your individual system and essentially how 'leaky' it is. Start high and work your way backward until you find your systems dose.

How exactly do you measure this to determine your proper dosage without an expensive DO meter?  The cheap method I can think of is to use sulfite strips to see how much sulfite remains at the end and reduce the dosage until you get zero? Is that accurate enough?

[MDL]

... The amount will be determined empirically and depends primarily on your individual system and essentially how 'leaky' it is. Start high and work your way backward until you find your systems dose.

How exactly do you measure this to determine your proper dosage without an expensive DO meter?  The cheap method I can think of is to use sulfite strips to see how much sulfite remains at the end and reduce the dosage until you get zero? Is that accurate enough?

I initially used an ORP meter to help dial in my sulfite addition. You will see a negative ORP when you are in a reduction state. I’m now using about 25 ppm of potassium meta with ascorbic acid and brewtan B in the mash with yeast deoxygenated strike water and preboiled sparge water.

[BrewBama]

I use .3 grams of OxBlox per gal strike liquor. Without a meter or strips, I didn’t know where to start so I use the retailer’s recommendation.