[Village Taphouse]

but why would they feel a need to darken it in the 1800s? what is the point?

i'll be posting pics of my 95% vienna 5% munich malt lager soon. the colour so far is an orange around 5 SRM. from colour/tint alone you would not confuse this with a pilsner beer that had black malt added to reach 5 SRM

It may not be that they felt a need to darken it as much as it could be that Vienna Malt (Dreher's Vienna Malt) may have been darker in those days plus the possibility of decoction and maybe oxidation darkening the wort.  Also, pH was not as well understood in those days but brewers understood that when darker malts were used, the beers came out better (the opposite was the issue Josef Grol was having making pale beers until he found the soft water of Plzen).  IIRC, stout was made in Ireland because it's the only way that Irish brewers could brew a palatable beer.  They may not have known it at the time but the dark malt was lowering the pH into a more desirable zone.  Dreher may have had the same issues and knew that darker malts would produce a better beer.  Not sure what Vienna water was/is like but it may have required darker malts to produce smooth beer in the absence of acids/acid malt, etc.  A lot of things you read is that prior to Pilsner Urquell, all beers were dark or darkish. 

[majorvices]

I'm kinda surprised a lot of you haven't brewed a 100% Vienna lager before. I thought is was as popular as Kölsch and some other styles. If you like Vienna malt try it as your basemalt in IPA sometime.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Check out what Michael Jackson has to say about Vienna Lager in New World Guide to Beer

I have 3 of his books, "World Guide To Beer", "Ultimate Beer", and "Beer Companion".

Plus "The Complete Encyclopedia Of Beer", by B. Verhoef.

Time to go to my library and do some reading!

[denny]

Check out what Michael Jackson has to say about Vienna Lager in New World Guide to Beer

I have 3 of his books, "World Guide To Beer", "Ultimate Beer", and "Beer Companion".

Plus "The Complete Encyclopedia Of Beer", by B. Verhoef.

Time to go to my library and do some reading!

Great!  I don't know how much changed between World Guide and New World Guide,

[Bel Air Brewing]

Just so you know what 100% Ireks Vienna Malt looks like...

[hopfenundmalz]

Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10 EBC.

[Drewch]

I want to see some info on the grain bill for the very first Vienna Lagers, that would show us what they would have brewed.

Krennmair (2018) gives a very simple reconstructed recipe (c. 1870) of 100% Vienna Malt for an OG of 1.053 resulting in a wort of 4.3 SRM.  He doesn't otherwise address color except to say, "The pale malt gave an amber-coloured wort which was clearly lighter than brown malts at that time..."

[Iliff Ave]

Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10 L.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

[majorvices]

If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

[Bel Air Brewing]

If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

That info came from Ireks website. Munich is 18-22.

http://www.ireks-malz.de/Base-malts.htm

   

 

Wort Colour (EBC units)
   
IREKS Pilsner Malt    

2.5 - 5
   Specification
 
   
IREKS Pale Ale Malt    

5 - 7
   Specification
   
IREKS Vienna Malt    

8 - 10
   Specification
 
   
IREKS Munich Malt    

18 - 22
   Specification

   
IREKS Pilsner Malt Winter    

3 - 5
   Specification

 

[Village Taphouse]

If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

That info came from Ireks website. Munich is 18-22L.

http://www.ireks-malz.de/Base-malts.htm

That's definitely out of bounds for Euro Vienna or Munich.  Vienna is typically 5L, Munich 1 is 6-8L and Munich 2 is usually 8-10 (or 11)L.  I'm talking Weyermann, Avangard, Best Malz, etc.  Munich malt is base malt that can be used for 100% of the grist and I would not do that with a malt that was 18-22L, no sir. 

EDIT:  Dude.  It says EBC above that column in your link.  Different measurement. 

[Bel Air Brewing]

If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

That info came from Ireks website. Munich is 18-22L.

http://www.ireks-malz.de/Base-malts.htm

That's definitely out of bounds for Euro Vienna or Munich.  Vienna is typically 5L, Munich 1 is 6-8L and Munich 2 is usually 8-10 (or 11)L.  I'm talking Weyermann, Avangard, Best Malz, etc.  Munich malt is base malt that can be used for 100% of the grist and I would not do that with a malt that was 18-22L, no sir. 

EDIT:  Dude.  It says EBC above that column in your link.  Different measurement.

Dude #1 to Dude #2 - That is exactly why it was posted.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

Correct. Note the color of the beer pictured above. What SRM would you give that?

[Village Taphouse]

If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

That info came from Ireks website. Munich is 18-22L.

http://www.ireks-malz.de/Base-malts.htm

That's definitely out of bounds for Euro Vienna or Munich.  Vienna is typically 5L, Munich 1 is 6-8L and Munich 2 is usually 8-10 (or 11)L.  I'm talking Weyermann, Avangard, Best Malz, etc.  Munich malt is base malt that can be used for 100% of the grist and I would not do that with a malt that was 18-22L, no sir. 

EDIT:  Dude.  It says EBC above that column in your link.  Different measurement.

Dude #1 to Dude #2 - That is exactly why it was posted.

But your post says Munich is 18-22L.  It's 18-22 EBC.