[BrewBama]

I don’t think stating that German Light Lagers are unappealing to some with low tolerance for the sulfur taste is out of line for this thread.

After all, the OP opened the door by discussing scoring low in competition due to a sulfur fault, screenshots of queried judges concerning beer with a sulfur fault, and even lobbied to have the guidelines changed to allow sulfur as a feature.

Also, though not specifically mentioned, common HomeBrew approximations of commercial LowO2 practices includes adding sulfur to the hot side to assist in de-aeration.

Therefore, for these reasons I believe to the contrary, sulfur taste seems to be of great interest in Hot Side Aeration discussions on a HomeBrew forum.  Is the AHA to allow only what someone perceives as an acceptable comment in these discussions?  All pro, no con? If so, that’s not a discussion. That’s an echo chamber.

I agree that sulfur sux. I screwed up more than one batch before I abandoned Kmeta. Having lived in Europe six years I have had some good Light German Lagers and some that were not so good. I also agree that's not a knock against the style or the people who enjoy it.  I just don’t like sulfur and evidently I suck at using Kmeta.

….but… I thought the goal was to use only the amount of sulfur that will be consumed without any residual taste in the finished beer. Having said that my questions now become: Did the guidelines really have to be changed to allow sulfur as a feature vs a fault?  We brew this way and aren’t scoring high enough to win so rewrite the guidelines to fit? Seems like the tail wagging the dog.

[lupulus]

Brewbama
The problem is the contradiction.
Of the BJCP commercial examples the below have sulfur when drank at the source:
Augustiner Lagerbier Hell, Hacker-Pschorr Münchner Gold
Schönramer Hell

You can't have a perfect Augustiner score 30 because it has sulfur dioxide.

Yes the new BJCP guidelines incorporated sulfur as a general comment.
It has always been there for European Beer Star.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

[BrewBama]

Brewbama
The problem is the contradiction.
Of the BJCP commercial examples the below have sulfur when drank at the source:
Augustiner Lagerbier Hell, Hacker-Pschorr Münchner Gold
Schönramer Hell

You can't have a perfect Augustiner score 30 because it has sulfur dioxide.

Yes the new BJCP guidelines incorporated sulfur as a general comment.
It has always been there for European Beer Star.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

[fredthecat]

Just a hypothetical...
Would it be douchy to go to:

The West coast IPA thread to state how gross high bitterness is

The Saison thread to state how gross phenols are

The Imperial stout thread to state how undrinkable these high FG are

The Lambic thread to state how gross and upsetting to your stomach the acidity is

The hazies thread to state how gross cloudy beers are

The AHA Forum to state how gross most beers are and how much better wine is

Asking for a friend.

lol are you okay?

I'm not a  fan of helles myself because I perceive it as too sweet for my tastes.

lol dude, i love it.




for good or bad, i think of beer as a necessity of daily life. thats how i brew it, and thats why im too uninterested/stingy to send off 6 bottles (heh) to get reviewed by someone else when i know it's just their inexpert, no matter how acredentialed they are, opinions. i can actually claim ancestry to some prime brewing areas, including london with a great grandpa as a beer traveler in edwardian times, mittelfranken, and other strong beer places and i know none of the beers they experienced were LODO in any way. that doesn't mean i don't dismiss LODO outright, just as I understand modern coffee practices are objectively better ways to extract the flavour of the beans. however I know if i spent ~700% more in cash on my coffee brewing I know it would be improved, but that simply isn't going to happen.

ok, anyway i am fine with drinking the beers that my ancestors drank with i guess as much improvements as are reasonable re: oxygen ingress, which are still a massive increase compared to these. these are regions that made beer famous as hell, it cant be half bad even with oxidation.


even more importantly i will be passing this down. even my grandmother used to brew beer, and my other would make wine, but sadly they let these things slide (thanks boomers)

[jeffy]

Brewbama
The problem is the contradiction.
Of the BJCP commercial examples the below have sulfur when drank at the source:
Augustiner Lagerbier Hell, Hacker-Pschorr Münchner Gold
Schönramer Hell

You can't have a perfect Augustiner score 30 because it has sulfur dioxide.

Yes the new BJCP guidelines incorporated sulfur as a general comment.
It has always been there for European Beer Star.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

I specifically remember writing a comment that the low sulfur aroma leant authenticity to a European Lager on a scoresheet in a homebrew competition 20 years ago. 
So, I'm a judge that acknowledges that.

[majorvices]

I finally listened to this. The biggest takeaway from a LoDo perspective it that they deaerate their water and fill the mash liquor from the bottom. Purging their mill/grist with nitrogen isn't going to be possible for most homebrewers or small breweries out there. There was no mention of adding sulphites to the mash, which I would assume increases the sulphur in homebrew LoDo brews. I also agree with the posters who have said that there has been an allowance for "some sulfur" in BJCP guides for at least as long as I can remember ... which is a pretty long time.

[pete b]

I for the life of me cant understand why anyone would like the taste of sulfur in something you are drinking. To each their own I suppose, but the taste and smell of sulfur is just gross to me, and its a reason I dont enjoy quitye a few lagers, including many of the "great ones"

Just a hypothetical...
Would it be douchy to go to:

The West coast IPA thread to state how gross high bitterness is

The Saison thread to state how gross phenols are

The Imperial stout thread to state how undrinkable these high FG are

The Lambic thread to state how gross and upsetting to your stomach the acidity is

The hazies thread to state how gross cloudy beers are

The AHA Forum to state how gross most beers are and how much better wine is

Asking for a friend.

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

I don’t think there has ever been a NEIPA thread without multiple people chiming in that they simply don’t like the style and/or they are sick of how much shelf space they take up. That’s fine, it’s easy to ignore.

[ScallyWag]

Is this the appropriate thread & timing to note that I actually prefer wine to beer??

I was wondering when & where to put that...

ETA: ok, to be fair I should note that I have learned so much from this thread, and thanks to all who've shared even when disagreeing.  As a novice, I learn so much from all you far more experienced brewers debating this & that & the other. 

[goose]

I know I am chiming in a bit late on the HSA thing but I just watched the podcast and wanted to share some of my techniques in the brewhouse.
 
1)  I do not currently underlet in my mash tun to reduce possible oxygen uptake in the mash tun when doughing in.  I have the ability to do so, but it will add about an extra hour to the brew day since I will have to heat the mash liquor to strike temperature, drain the HLT by underletting into the mash tun, refill the HLT with sparge liquor, acidify, and heat to 168 degrees.  I heat my strike liquor in the mash tun and then dough in. I can then acidify the sparge liquor at room temperature to get a good pH reading and then heat it to sparging temp while the mash is converting.  I feel that heating the mash liquor to strike temperature will purge oxygen from it (I heat my mash liquor while recirculating and have a hose submerged in the mash liquor so that it doesn't splash the mash liquor).

2)  I do not use a spray ball to sparge with.  I use the SABCO idea of laying a hose on top of the grain bed and sparge that way.  The hose is submerged under the level of he liquid in the mash tun and therefore does not splash across the grain bed.  I realize that hot water does not pick up oxygen easily but that is my process for sparging.

I have won medals with my lagers using this method and have never had comments on oxidation using the above method.  So if your method works for you, continue it.

One other observation.  Unless you have the capability to wet mill your grain or purge your mill with nitrogen like SN does, the crushed grain will have oxygen in it.  So when dumping into the mash tun you are adding something with O2 sticking to it.  Just an observation.

Just some extra thoughts.

[hopfenundmalz]

Breweries like Sierra Nevada, Weihenstephan, and Schönramer have stripping columns that remove the O2 from the water, and the deoxigenated water is the stored in a large tank. DO water has many uses in a brewery.

Goose, if I'm  really working on making a LODO beer, I mill into my mashtun while CO2 is fed from the bottom. Then i fill the boiled and SMB treated strike water from the bottom.

Helles? Not sweet to me in Munich, more of a perfect balance in the finish.

[denny]

Breweries like Sierra Nevada, Weihenstephan, and Schönramer have stripping columns that remove the O2 from the water, and the deoxigenated water is the stored in a large tank. DO water has many uses in a brewery.

Goose, if I'm  really working on making a LODO beer, I mill into my mashtun while CO2 is fed from the bottom. Then i fill the boiled and SMB treated strike water from the bottom.

Helles? Not sweet to me in Munich, more of a perfect balance in the finish.

Yeah, I know that's the way it supposed to be, but that's not the way I have perceived it.

[narvin]

Is it douchy to imply that someone is a douche and then hide behind "Asking for a friend" when they clearly don't have any friends?  I'm asking for myself.

[goose]

Breweries like Sierra Nevada, Weihenstephan, and Schönramer have stripping columns that remove the O2 from the water, and the deoxigenated water is the stored in a large tank. DO water has many uses in a brewery.

Goose, if I'm  really working on making a LODO beer, I mill into my mashtun while CO2 is fed from the bottom. Then i fill the boiled and SMB treated strike water from the bottom.

Helles? Not sweet to me in Munich, more of a perfect balance in the finish.

Yeah, I know that's the way it supposed to be, but that's not the way I have perceived it.

I always look for some malty sweetness in a Helles, not too much, but balanced with the hops. 

[hopfenundmalz]

Breweries like Sierra Nevada, Weihenstephan, and Schönramer have stripping columns that remove the O2 from the water, and the deoxigenated water is the stored in a large tank. DO water has many uses in a brewery.

Goose, if I'm  really working on making a LODO beer, I mill into my mashtun while CO2 is fed from the bottom. Then i fill the boiled and SMB treated strike water from the bottom.

Helles? Not sweet to me in Munich, more of a perfect balance in the finish.

Yeah, I know that's the way it supposed to be, but that's not the way I have perceived it.

I always look for some malty sweetness in a Helles, not too much, but balanced with the hops.

I don’t  equate malt flavors to sweetness. Many malty beers have a fairly low FG.

[BrewBama]

I believe my weakest link in my battle with O2 is the sparge. I have for years completely drained the MLT and then added sparge liquor below the grain bed. I believe that exposure, though brief, is probably not the best approach.

I have a brewday upcoming that doesn’t rely on a particularly high gravity.  The grain bill will be small enough that I think I can do No Sparge and still produce a descent representation of the beer. I have some sugar in the recipe so I can add a bit more if my OG suffers too much.

How do you guys address the sparge in your Low O2 brewdays?